Booting Vista from external drive violate MS EULA?

I imagine that a determined Vista user could find
a way to boot Vista from an external hard drive.

Question is, would it be "legal" according to MS?

Myself, I see no harm in it, same user, same PC, etc.

Microsoft might look at it differently, however.

Opinions?

Mark-

One licence, one installation; no matter where it is installed.
Install where you like, as long as only one install at a time.
Also, if you install as your operating system, and want to do a virtual
install as well, buy another licence.
--
Mick Murphy - Qld - Australia


"Mark Conrad" wrote:

>
> I imagine that a determined Vista user could find
> a way to boot Vista from an external hard drive.
>
> Question is, would it be "legal" according to MS?
>
> Myself, I see no harm in it, same user, same PC, etc.
>
> Microsoft might look at it differently, however.
>
> Opinions?
>
> Mark-
>

Hi Mark,

Nothing in the license agreement prevents installing to an external drive
that I am aware of. However, Vista does not support doing it. If you do find
a method, the throughput rate would be way too slow for the installation to
be usable. If you're thinking that you could move the external drive to a
different system and boot Vista from there, that likely won't work either as
the system file set is built around the hardware that it's installed on
(meaning more than just the hard drive).

--
Best of Luck,

Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP
http://mvp.support.microsoft.com/
Windows help - www.rickrogers.org
My thoughts http://rick-mvp.blogspot.com

"Mark Conrad" <> wrote in message
news:noneof-...
>
> I imagine that a determined Vista user could find
> a way to boot Vista from an external hard drive.
>
> Question is, would it be "legal" according to MS?
>
> Myself, I see no harm in it, same user, same PC, etc.
>
> Microsoft might look at it differently, however.
>
> Opinions?
>
> Mark-

Mark Conrad wrote:
> I imagine that a determined Vista user could find
> a way to boot Vista from an external hard drive.
>


Microsoft designs its operating systems so that they won't normally
install to an external drive. However, people have hacked past OSes to
get around this (and such "reverse engineering" is prohibited in the
EULA), but I've haven't heard of it happening to Vista, yet. No doubt
it will, if it hasn't already.

Another "exception," but one that requires no illicit "hacking," would
be to install Vista on one of the relatively new eSATA drives, which
Vista "sees" as internal devices.


> Question is, would it be "legal" according to MS?
>

Well, there's certainly nothing in the EULA that explicitly prohibits
the practice.


> Myself, I see no harm in it, same user, same PC, etc.
>


If that's the only use made of the external drive installation, you'd
be right; but then, what would be the point? After all, the only reason
to use an external drive is portability. Otherwise, why bother?


> Microsoft might look at it differently, however.
>

They do, I'm sure. If one could install Vista on an external hard
drive, one could theoretically move it from one machine to another (it
would have to be an identical machine) without activation. However,
probably because the line between external hard drives and removable
hard drives would be awfully hard to define, legally and with sufficient
clarity to pass a court test, Microsoft hasn't found a viable way to
explicitly ban the practice.


--

Bruce Chambers

Help us help you:
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx/kb/555375

They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary
safety deserve neither liberty nor safety. ~Benjamin Franklin

Many people would rather die than think; in fact, most do. ~Bertrand Russell

The philosopher has never killed any priests, whereas the priest has
killed a great many philosophers.
~ Denis Diderot

In article <OlueTlf$>,
"Rick Rogers" <> wrote:

> Hi Mark,
>
> Nothing in the license agreement prevents installing
> to an external drive that I am aware of.

Great, glad to hear that.



> Vista does not support doing it.

I gathered that, after reading several threads in
various forums about the "impossibility" of trying
to do it, however I eventually cobbled together a
half-vast method that worked for me, YMMV.



> If you do find a method, the throughput rate would
> be way too slow for the installation to be usable.

Does not seem to be noticeably slower here, however
did not get around to critically timing it yet.



> If you're thinking that you could move the external
> drive to a different system and boot Vista
> from there... <clipped>...

No, have no intention of doing that.

My interest is strictly in having an emergency way to
continue operating the same laptop computer, when I
clobber that computer by doing something stupid.

I could just restore the computer from a backup,
however the resulting delay would occasionally be
prohibitive with my tight scheduling, so for those
occasions it would be better to have this alternative
way of continuing to operate my computer.

....then later, at my convenience, do a proper "image"
type of restore of the badly clobbered internal drive,
which is usually too badly damaged for a conventional
restore solution to recover from.

Mark-

Really appreciate hearing that, would not look forward to
the Microsoft Police battering down my front door. ;-)

I actually have two licenses for Vista Ultimate right now,
have not got around to using the second license yet.

That second license will probably be used on a big desktop
computer which I plan to remotely control "from the road".
(I do a lot of traveling)

Mark-


--
In article <89765B3F-5BEE-4B15-88F3->,
Mick Murphy <> wrote:

> One licence, one installation; no matter where it is installed.
> Install where you like, as long as only one install at a time.
> Also, if you install as your operating system, and want to do a
> virtual install as well, buy another licence.

In article <OY0Gk6g$>,
Bruce Chambers <3t> wrote:

> > Myself, I see no harm in it, same user, same PC, etc.
> >
>
>
> If that's the only use made of the external drive installation, you'd
> be right; but then, what would be the point? After all, the only reason
> to use an external drive is portability. Otherwise, why bother?


Probably. I had not really thought about why external drives
are used, outside of the obvious reason of providing more
storage space, and as a "cushion" to have immediate access to
rapid emergency operation of a computer if the internal drive
gets thoroughly corrupted beyond quick repair.

Being a newbie with Vista, and with Windows OSs in general,
I seem to be zapping my PC horribly lately, especially when
it is "needed" for some task or other.

I would feel a lot better if I had a bootable version of
Vista to fall back on, until such time as I got around to
restoring my internal drive each time I accidentally
messed it up.


Those feelings will probably disappear when I get a bit more
adept at running Vista, instead of accidentally clobbering it
through my ignorance.

Mark-

I had about 10 000 000 0000 000 bsods before managing this
the vista usb solution. This avoids any ghosting or copying ove
of OS install to diff drives. Avoids cross mounting registry hives

drawback:needs another drive plugged in sata or ide channel or BSO
after install procedure (used or unused
Meaning this boots off usb vista, if there is another hard driv
present in the system. Ha
something to do with vista verification of disk drives(for now)
Working on a fake ckecksum. The ide or sat
drive doesnt need to boot, it justneeds to be present. If usb boot i
slow its not the install but the hardware bios support on the system
I read around and compiled my own way of doing so.

Vista wont start installation on a USB interface no matter what. It i
embedded in the OS which I wasnt able to track down
So I decided to use VMWARE 6 (may work with older vmware not sure)
You can download vmware and an eval license for 30 days can be emaile
to you
You can also try the free server version of vmware assuming it wil
work the same
download vmware install it. (vmware is easy to use

Step 1: Get vista installed on your drive either use 1a OR 1

Step 1a: Install vista via ide/sata instal
O
Step 1b: Use vmware
Create a new vmware for windows, pick custom pick lsi logic as scs
card (vista has support for this card
use cdrom or iso as you wish for the vista install CD
have your usb drive u want to install on, plugged in. Vmware will se
this device as physical drive 1 (0 being your OS
use physical disk(advanced) of your usb drive. Make sure you pick th
correct physical drive (drive 1 usually) or else you might wipe th
current OS drive
Use entire disk
Click advanced on disk in virtual machine settings. Click o
independen
and persistent changes for the disk

Now, remove all assigned letters in disk management for the USB driv
(If you dont u can corrupt an install that way)
To make sure you clean install vista, remove all partitions in dis
management of your USB drive
(if you have needed data, you can still try but not guaranteed to wor
it may hang
Disconnect USB drive!, reconnect

Play vmware instance
During vista install, create partitions, format partition (or else
might get corrupt boot as crcdisk error
Vmware will show that drive as scsi disk under lsi logic controller
this is fine as vista will install on a scsi disk

Step 2: (if you used step 1a just boot as normal on IDE/SATA
Boot and go through the vista install procedure in vmware
Let vista boot to the desktop the first time in the vmwar
inside vmware vista do start-> run regedit (in the search box unlik
XP
goto HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SYSTEM\CurrentControlSet\servic es
Now edit tag
start =
Group = boot bus extende

on all these servie
usbccg
usbehc
usbhu
usbsto
usbuhc
usbohc

If there are no "group" string values add them in for those service

exit regedi

step 3
goto \windows\system32\DriverStore\FileRepository\usbst or.inf_bb2778a
copy usbstor.sys into \windows\system32\drivers (ugh not sure why M
doesnt have it in here
goto \windows\in
take control and inherit perms for administrator of the inf folder
the
edit usbstor.inf,usbport.inf,usb.inf to have inside sectio
[*.AddService
StartType =
LoadOrderGroup = boot bus extende

(This is because when you boot into regular desktop out of vmware i
will find new usb interfac
and mess up the startup type.

shutdown vist

close vmwar
Disconnect USB drive!, reconnect

Step 4: (if you used step 1a plug drive into USB enclosure
Now reboot your machine and select USB boot drive from bios boot
Machine should now boo
to vista desktop
Also if it finds new usb devices or if drivers are added bsod. Mak
sure th
start type and groups dont change on the usb services (verify i
regedit)
It will find your current hardware's usb device and install drivers fo
it
problem is it can overwrite the original usb*.inf file and add ne
params into it
double check this or when you reboot again boot will fail
If you do windows update, fix the registry or it will fail. Update add
new files like the original.
After the drivers get installed for the first time it is safe to assume
you wont
have to deal with it being reinstalled unless you goto another machine.
Of course you can always go back to the vmware instance and fix it
there.
In short redo step 2 after first USB boot to desktop (finds new
hardware), full update, machine change, plugging in new type
of storage USB devices for the first time. (e.g. the UHCI, OHCI, EHCI
hardware types change the start type since drivers
weren't prepped yet. )


Hope its simple and straight forward. You can probably install xp and
200(0,3) this way too. (may need
lsi logic drivers to find boot disk though, vista,win2k3 has it
natively)
EDIT: xp and windows 200(0,3) exhibit the same behavior of BSOD during
boot. Even after
copying usbstor.sys and other files from driver cache cabs. So xp and
win2k3 dont work currently.
Still maybe salvageable with other tweaks out there.

The is another way to get WAIK tools for vista and regedit the above
changes directly in the boot(1,2).wim
and install(1,2,3,4,5,6).wim but I will leave that out to the daring.
Vista installer still wont
do direct usb install though even with those usb service changes in the
image.

If your drive doesnt show up under vmware for use then its targetting
as removeable device.
you can install the xpfildrvr driver (the hitachi driver) to remedy
that. (mostly for usb flash drives)
Careful about USB stick since it needs additional drivers to stop those
write cycles in windows.
But atleast the install should be straight forward. No need for extra
copying or dealing with
non working boot sectors as the install is directly on the destination.



Lazy mans quick install (step 2), step 3 maybe skipped, just do step 2
again when moving drive around and/or
after updates.
Close vmware, disconnect USB drive!, reconnect, goto disk management
assign drive letter, copy inf file to your vista's c:\
Go back to disk management, deassign drive letter. Disconnect USB
drive!, reconnect.
Run vmware, inside vmware right click install the inf file. It wont
change the usb
inf files for you but it will add the reg and copy usbstor.sys for you.
When you run
through updates, you can re install the inf file and reboot.


--
Ultimate User

In article <>,
Ultimate User <> wrote:

> I had about 10 000 000 0000 000 bsods before managing this
> the vista usb solution. This avoids any ghosting or copying over
> of OS install to diff drives. Avoids cross mounting registry hives.
...<rest of post heavily clipped>...

Thanks very much for the detailed post, I appreciate it.

I did some preliminary experimentation, and ran into a
lot of the same issues that plagued you.

Specifically, that some rudimentary parts of the Vista OS
HAVE to be present on the _internal_ drive, in order for
the external Vista drive to successfully boot.

JUST be present, for reference, internal drive's OS
not running.

No big deal, it is easy enough to quickly throw those
necessary pieces into the internal drive, with an
image file.

Referencing items from a non-running OS is a common
thing, done all the time; for example, a Vista util
named "Drive7" can send/receive files from a running
Vista OS to a _non_ _running_ Mac OS.





Like you, I do not know _exactly_ which pieces of
the Vista OS are necessary, just know the _range_
of pieces that have to be present on the internal drive.
(in order to allow the _external_ drive to boot)

Would not do much good to know the exact locations
anyhow, because Microsoft can change those locations any
time they want to, in subsequent upgrades.



Bottom line, with persistence an external Vista hard drive
can be forced to boot. Not easy, but it can be done.

Apple has allowed external drive booting for years, and I
do not see them going broke because of that policy.

Microsoft is more paranoid than Apple in this respect.

As others here have pointed out, Microsoft has more sense
than trying to directly forbid users to boot from an
external drive "in their own bedroom", so to speak.

To do so would backfire on them, at least in this country.

It would cause a situation tantamount to prohibition;
hordes of people would promptly circumvent such a
heavy-handed policy and publish ways to defeat it,
"legal" or not.

I think Microsoft recognizes this fact of life.


As regards _why_ a user would want to boot from an
external drive, that is a subject
for a different thread.

Mark-

Rick Rogers wrote in news:OlueTlf$:

> ...installing to an external drive... However, Vista does not support
> doing it.

****ing bullshite. I have Vista here that boots off an external drive.

> If you do find a method, the throughput rate would be way too slow for the
> installation to be usable.

****ing bullshite.

> Rick Rogers, aka "Nutcase" - Microsoft MVP

Oh, you're a Most Valueless Prostitute. Why am I not surprised?

--
Cod Almighty

alt.usenet.kooks
"We are arrant knaves all, believe none of us."
Hamlet, Act 3, Scene 1 [129]

Hammer of Thor: February 2007. Pierre Salinger Memorial Hook,
Line & Sinker: September 2005, April 2006, January 2007.
Official Member: Cabal Obsidian Order COOSN-124-07-06660
Official Overseer of Kooks & Trolls in 24hoursupport.helpdesk