Complaint about update system

My system is Windows 2000 and it's working very well. My complaint is
about the updates. It's running in the background and tonight it told
me there were updates to install. After they're installed, it asks if I
want to reboot, and I say no, I'm in the middle of some work.

But the rebooter won't take no for an answer! Every few minutes it
comes back and reminds me to reboot, and if I'm not there it will start
without me in 5 minutes.

1. Where can I disable the automatic updater?

2. Suggestion #1: Allow the user to postpone a reboot after a Windows
update for longer than a few minutes, indefinitely even!

3. Suggestion #2: If the nature of the updates means that we really,
really need to reboot right an update, then add a warning message to the
Update notification feature. Something like: "If you choose to install
this update, you will be required to reboot immediately after
installation. Do you really want to do this?

4. Allow the user to tell Windows to wait until the screen saver turns
on to reboot.

ANYTHING would be preferable to the current method.

Thanks.


--
Steven M - d
(remove wax and invalid to reply)

What's the definition of a will? (Hint: It's a dead giveaway).

Steven Marzuola (remove wax and invalid for reply) wrote:
> My system is Windows 2000 and it's working very well. My complaint is
> about the updates. It's running in the background and tonight it told
> me there were updates to install. After they're installed, it asks
> if I want to reboot, and I say no, I'm in the middle of some work.
>
> But the rebooter won't take no for an answer! Every few minutes it
> comes back and reminds me to reboot, and if I'm not there it will
> start without me in 5 minutes.
>
> 1. Where can I disable the automatic updater?
>
> 2. Suggestion #1: Allow the user to postpone a reboot after a Windows
> update for longer than a few minutes, indefinitely even!
>
> 3. Suggestion #2: If the nature of the updates means that we really,
> really need to reboot right an update, then add a warning message to
> the Update notification feature. Something like: "If you choose to
> install this update, you will be required to reboot immediately after
> installation. Do you really want to do this?
>
> 4. Allow the user to tell Windows to wait until the screen saver
> turns on to reboot.
>
> ANYTHING would be preferable to the current method.

This is a peer-to-peer newsgroup.
This is *not* Microsoft.

1. Even in Windows 2000, this should be true:

- Right-Click on "My Computer" and select "Properties"
- Click on the "Automatic Updates" tab

From there - you should get the picture.
If not - here's one:
http://www.windowsitpro.com/Files/16...autoupdate.gif

I would suggest - for you - "Download the updates and notify me when they
are ready to be installed." - that way you still get the updates - but you
decide when to install - so you are the one to blame for the "I need to
reboot, reboot now?" messages after you choose to install.

2. Why? Seriously. You could have - all this time - chosen a different way
to install updates, even turning off all automatic update features. You
chose not to until it became annoying to you. Now that you have chosen to
do something about it - do it.

3. Assume all Windows updates require a reboot. This ain't linux. You
cannot just move on. And if you setup your updates properly around the way
you feel about them - you have control from the beginning. You can even
completely turn off Automatic Updates and rely on yourself visiting
http://windowsupdate.microsoft.com/ if you so desire.. Downloading and
installing at your whim.

4. Okay - that one is interesting.. Although flawed. Just because the
screensaver turns on does not mean I was ready for the machine to reboot and
lose all that work on that project I had not saved in the past hour while I
went and got some fresh air..

If anything is preferrable - why have you not looked into the many options
for updating until now? Automatic Updates is NOT a new feature. =)

--
Shenan Stanley
MS-MVP
--
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

I completely agree with Steve!
It is inacceptable that an operating system reboots at will without ANY
possibility for a user to interact! If a user has open files the OS MUST
propose a possibility to stop the reboot process and give the user a chance
to save her work!
As for Shenans answer: he obivously has never been burdened with
administrative tasks in a bigger company otherwise he would know how "easy"
it is to manually keep a big number of client pcs up to date with a MS
operating system! as an administrator for several companies i have lately
received a lot of flak from the respective ceos since automated windows
updates led to severe data loss for several users. as a result we had to
switch off the automatic update completely, solving the problems for the
users but increasing our work as admins. THANKS, MICROSOFT!

Steven Marzuola wrote:
> My system is Windows 2000 and it's working very well. My complaint
> is about the updates. It's running in the background and tonight it
> told me there were updates to install. After they're installed, it
> asks if I want to reboot, and I say no, I'm in the middle of some
> work.
>
> But the rebooter won't take no for an answer! Every few minutes it
> comes back and reminds me to reboot, and if I'm not there it will
> start without me in 5 minutes.
>
> 1. Where can I disable the automatic updater?
>
> 2. Suggestion #1: Allow the user to postpone a reboot after a
> Windows update for longer than a few minutes, indefinitely even!
>
> 3. Suggestion #2: If the nature of the updates means that we really,
> really need to reboot right an update, then add a warning message to
> the Update notification feature. Something like: "If you choose to
> install this update, you will be required to reboot immediately after
> installation. Do you really want to do this?
>
> 4. Allow the user to tell Windows to wait until the screen saver
> turns on to reboot.
>
> ANYTHING would be preferable to the current method.

Shenan Stanley wrote:
> This is a peer-to-peer newsgroup.
> This is *not* Microsoft.
>
> 1. Even in Windows 2000, this should be true:
>
> - Right-Click on "My Computer" and select "Properties"
> - Click on the "Automatic Updates" tab
>
> From there - you should get the picture.
> If not - here's one:
> http://www.windowsitpro.com/Files/16...autoupdate.gif
>
> I would suggest - for you - "Download the updates and notify me when
> they are ready to be installed." - that way you still get the updates
> - but you decide when to install - so you are the one to blame for
> the "I need to reboot, reboot now?" messages after you choose to
> install.
>
> 2. Why? Seriously. You could have - all this time - chosen a
> different way to install updates, even turning off all automatic
> update features. You chose not to until it became annoying to you.
> Now that you have chosen to do something about it - do it.
>
> 3. Assume all Windows updates require a reboot. This ain't linux.
> You cannot just move on. And if you setup your updates properly
> around the way you feel about them - you have control from the
> beginning. You can even completely turn off Automatic Updates and
> rely on yourself visiting http://windowsupdate.microsoft.com/ if you
> so desire.. Downloading and installing at your whim.
>
> 4. Okay - that one is interesting.. Although flawed. Just because
> the screensaver turns on does not mean I was ready for the machine to
> reboot and lose all that work on that project I had not saved in the
> past hour while I went and got some fresh air..
>
> If anything is preferrable - why have you not looked into the many
> options for updating until now? Automatic Updates is NOT a new
> feature. =)

Berndl666 wrote:
> I completely agree with Steve!
> It is inacceptable that an operating system reboots at will without
> ANY possibility for a user to interact! If a user has open files the
> OS MUST propose a possibility to stop the reboot process and give the
> user a chance to save her work!
>
> As for Shenans answer: he obivously has never been burdened with
> administrative tasks in a bigger company otherwise he would know how
> "easy" it is to manually keep a big number of client pcs up to date
> with a MS operating system! as an administrator for several companies
> i have lately received a lot of flak from the respective ceos since
> automated windows updates led to severe data loss for several users.
> as a result we had to switch off the automatic update completely,
> solving the problems for the users but increasing our work as admins.
> THANKS, MICROSOFT!

I am involved with several thousand systems.. 1200 or so with a total of
40,000+ users possible and it is easy. Over 140 applications installed on
these machines - so lots of rooms for problems - and they do crop up.. But
over the last 8 years - nothing unmanageable.. As for the rebooting - it is
a simple setting in a corporate environment to prevent this.

If all you are using is pure automatic updates and you are in an environment
as large as you claim.. You need to do a little research into WSUS and see
if that helps you. With a few settings, your fears all but go away.

My answer stands for Steve - as I do not believe he is in a corporate
environment - and if he is - his complaint is with poor administrators - not
Microsoft.

As with most things like this - it is often the user of the tools and not
the tools being used that are at fault.

--
Shenan Stanley
MS-MVP
--
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Shenan:
True, WSUS *might* help but after the wsus v1.0 debacle several of my
customers decided not to rely on this technology any longer to avoid
automatic reboots and data loss. the new wsus may have potential if you can
afford the additional ressources but if it really works flawless only time
can tell. anyway this is a windows update forum so lets stick to that!
Shure, there is the NoAutoRebootWithLoggedOnUsers registry key (which I
found out only today, its so very nicely documented by MS), but will it work,
allways, in domains as well as in workgroups, with and without wsus?
Why not implementing some additional non-cryptic user-readable settings in
the Windows update applet (such as Installing at next shut down, Installing
at next power up etc...)?
And, finally, I cannot think of an update that so urgently needs to reboot
that it cant wait for a user to get a chance to save her open files!
Obviously arrogance is a new attitude in the large MS portfolio lately!

"Steven Marzuola (remove wax and invalid for reply)"
<> wrote in message
news:%...

> 2. Suggestion #1: Allow the user to postpone a reboot after a Windows
> update for longer than a few minutes, indefinitely even!

The default period of time to wait after /completion/ of the installation of
an update is five minutes. As Shenan noted, you brought part if this on
yourself by configuring your system to automatically install the updates. It
should also be noted that this automatic installation is done at a specified
time, so either somebody else has configured your system for you, or you're
enjoying the fruits of your own work. Change Automatic Updates back to Option
#3, and you'll be happier.

However, as to the actual question -- you can delay the time period from the
completion of updates to the initiation of the installation by adding these
registry values/data to the registry key at
HKLM\Software\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\WindowsUp date\AU

"RebootWarningTimeoutEnabled"=dword:0x1
"RebootWarningTimeout"=dword:0x1e (30 minutes, the maximum allowable value)

Also, if you are an Administrator on your machine, the system will also allow
you to "Reboot Later". By default, this prompt occurs every 10 minutes. You
can delay the time period for this prompt to recur after each click on "Reboot
Later" by adding these registry values/data to the registry key at
HKLM\Software\Policies\Microsoft\Windows\WindowsUp date\AU

"RebootRelaunchTimeoutEnabled"=dword:0x1
"RebootRelaunchTimeout"=dword:0x3c (60 minutes, the maximum allowable value
is 1440 minutes)

> 3. Suggestion #2: If the nature of the updates means that we really, really
> need to reboot right an update, then add a warning message to the Update
> notification feature. Something like: "If you choose to install this
> update, you will be required to reboot immediately after installation. Do
> you really want to do this?

Now.. this one.. is really off the wall. This has been the /NORMAL/ behavior
of Automatic Updates since the feature became available back in the days of
Windows 98. So to claim that you're 'unfamiliar' with this process either
means that this is the first time you've ever used a Windows computer, or
you've simply not been paying attention. (Or, as suggested in the response to
#2, you're not familiar with how your computer has been configured.)

> 4. Allow the user to tell Windows to wait until the screen saver turns on
> to reboot.

For the record... if you have an option to "Reboot Later", then the system
will /NEVER/ initiate a reboot while you're logged onto the system. If you're
getting a timeout counter (5 minutes), then you have /no/ options to delay the
restart.

I noted, also, that you posted your message at 3:40am Central Time.... could
it be that this is the first time you have ever been working at your system at
3am on Patch Tuesday????

This is a once-a-month event. It's fairly common knowledge. Updates are
published by Microsoft on the 2nd Tuesday of the month, and your system /will/
download those updates sometime before 5pm on Wednesday, and, by default,
Windows computers /will/ install those updates at 3am the morning following
the download (assuming the machine is powered on). You just got caught up in a
once-a-month event, that's probably been happening (unknown to you) for many
many months.

> ANYTHING would be preferable to the current method.

"Berndl666" <> wrote in message
news:5000015F-8BF9-4F8A-83EA-...
>I completely agree with Steve!

Then you probably should first understand /how/ the system works, and that
what Steve has described has some inaccuracies in it.

> It is inacceptable that an operating system reboots at will without ANY
> possibility for a user to interact!

A workstation using Automatic Updates... WILL NOT "reboot at will without ANY
possibility for a user to interact".

However, if the user has configured his system to install updates at 3am, and
is logged onto the system at 3am on Patch Tuesday, then that user has a
reasonable expectation that the system is going to prompt him to do a restart
at 3am.

> If a user has open files the OS MUST
> propose a possibility to stop the reboot process and give the user a chance
> to save her work!

Yeah.. in the worst case scenario, where the user does not have Administrative
privileges, the system, by default, places a FIVE MINUTE Modal Dialog
countdown warning on the desktop. Then, it calls the Shutdown command, just
like you would from the Start menu -- which, btw, forces applications to save
all work in progress -- just like would happen if you said "Shutdown" before
you closed MSWord or MSExcel.

> As for Shenans answer: he obivously has never been burdened with
> administrative tasks in a bigger company otherwise he would know how "easy"
> it is to manually keep a big number of client pcs up to date with a MS
> operating system!

What I can tell you is that "... a bigger company [with] a big number of
client pcs.." ought to be using Windows Server Update Services, and if you
/were/ using Windows Server Updates Services, you'd most likely be intimately
familiar with these inner workings of how clients update -- as I'm trying to
explain now.

> as an administrator for several companies i have lately
> received a lot of flak from the respective ceos since automated windows
> updates led to severe data loss for several users. as a result we had to
> switch off the automatic update completely, solving the problems for the
> users but increasing our work as admins. THANKS, MICROSOFT!

Before you Thank Microsoft -- maybe you should do a bit of product and
technology research of your own?

That last sentence speaks volumes about your understanding of how Automatic
Updates and SUS/WSUS works.

"Shenan Stanley" <> wrote in message
news:...

> My answer stands for Steve - as I do not believe he is in a corporate
> environment - and if he is - his complaint is with poor administrators - not
> Microsoft.

My take on Steve's post.. given it's post time shortly after 3am this
morning.. is that this is the /first/ time he's been logged onto his system a
3am on Patch Tuesday, and he simply got caught up in the /normal/ operation of
his system that he's, otherwise, been totally oblivious to.

I must also note.. the irony that Steve has a hal-pc.org email address, yet
seems unfamiliar with the workings of Automatic Updates, definitely intrigues
me.

> As with most things like this - it is often the user of the tools and not
> the tools being used that are at fault.

Hear! Hear!

> --
> Shenan Stanley
> MS-MVP
> --
> How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
> http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
>

Berndl666 wrote:
> True, WSUS *might* help but after the wsus v1.0 debacle several of my
> customers decided not to rely on this technology any longer to avoid
> automatic reboots and data loss. the new wsus may have potential if
> you can afford the additional ressources but if it really works
> flawless only time can tell. anyway this is a windows update forum so
> lets stick to that! Shure, there is the NoAutoRebootWithLoggedOnUsers
> registry key (which I found out only today, its so very nicely
> documented by MS), but will it work, allways, in domains as well as
> in workgroups, with and without wsus?
>
> Why not implementing some additional non-cryptic user-readable
> settings in the Windows update applet (such as Installing at next
> shut down, Installing at next power up etc...)?
>
> And, finally, I cannot think of an update that so urgently needs to
> reboot that it cant wait for a user to get a chance to save her open
> files! Obviously arrogance is a new attitude in the large MS
> portfolio lately!

The NoAutoReboot option has been around and in the white papers for a long
time - before WSUS - we used it in SUS. It was fiully discussed in the
white papers that should be read when configuring. =)

And if you have not tried WSUS - you may want to look at it - it's web
interface is very nice - giving you many of the options you mentioned right
there - as well as the ability to see a list of clients and what updates
they need, etc.

--
Shenan Stanley
MS-MVP
--
How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html

Lawrence:

True, Patch Tuesday is a special event. but unlike in the U.S. here in
Europe we can never be sure when these updates will be available. due to the
time shift (remember, earth is not a plain with America in the middle) it
might be tuesday noon, evening or even late wednesday morning until the
Windows Update service bites and launches the update installation. and please
allow me one more dumb question: why can only admins postpone the restart? in
the companies I and my team are working its mostly plain users that work on
their machines.
everything would be just fine if the average user would get the admin
messagebox for the restart and have a CHOICE.