to dzomlija & Kerry Brown - re; Vista/new PC's

I've tried to keep to tech queries (lord knows I've got enough tech probs),
but reading around some of the posts just got me too curious not to comment.
I understand, dzomlija and Kerry Brown, that you're both in the trade of
selling computers with and without Vista?
I can't recall exactly who made the comment, but I think you'd both
probably agree, that avoiding budget buys with trial software on low-end
hardware - as opposed to up to date hardware with paired down, but fully
operational, software - is a far better way to ensure happier PC running in
the short and long term.
And that a system built up with Vista in mind should run smoothly.

But also keep in mind (and as you both have a far greater
knowledge/experience of PC's in general) that Vista is still a shakey
creature. And though Vista Home Prem seems great from the outset as a basic
platform for all multimedia home purposes, if you're not paying attention to
exactly what (and how) goes onto your computer, Vista seems to 'break' under
the pressure far easier.
And for novices - which I most certainly am - that can be a bit of a
baptism of fire; almost bad enough to make you give up and either 'go Apple'
or just retreat to the relative assurance of XP.

Maybe it's a point that's been made a million times before, and I've just
missed it all, but I think it's relevent; especially to newcomers to PC (as I
am). I do like Vista, and I want to like it MORE; aesthetics of an OS are
important to me, if they weren't - I'd make do with black and white high
contrast menus - and Vista often looks great. Its windows' set-ups just seem
to be more logical than Macs, and not having been previously indocrinated to
XP, it's all new to me anyway.
But nor can I avoid the utter meltdowns and repeated 'crisis of faith'
moments. We spent £800+ on this machine, and frankly, I'd expect it to (with
reason) do everything I want without issue (run ONE game properly...
Photoshop, web etc)
Maybe people just need to be a bit more aware that you need to be a little
bit more attentive with the new OS - or things can slip easily.
Cheers for listening.

Windows Vista is more than just AERO Glass, its all about the experience,
whether its multimedia or security wise. Vista has made significant
improvements in the areas of security, the new User Account Control is one,
Standard Administrator Account, BitLocker Drive Encryption, built
AntiSpyware, ASLR, Protected Mode in IE, Kernel Mode Protection in 64 bit
Vista.

We must take into account, Vista is relatively new on the market and there
is still some adjustment needed along with the fact that Vista has made some
numerous changes to way we interact with our computers. Some of these
efforts will require third party developers to upgrade their applications,
users to do things in a better way.

I wish I could better understand your problem with Vista so I can at least
try to help you solve it, but just ranting about the OS is not gonna help
get past your frustration, neither is moving to another platform. The recent
Mac OS X release Leopard has experienced numerous problems and has been
designated not ready.
--
Andre
Blog: http://adacosta.spaces.live.com
My Vista Quickstart Guide:
http://adacosta.spaces.live.com/blog...3DB!9709.entry
"Spanishcat" <> wrote in message
news:89B7AF3F-A9AB-40CB-BFC7-...
> I've tried to keep to tech queries (lord knows I've got enough tech
> probs),
> but reading around some of the posts just got me too curious not to
> comment.
> I understand, dzomlija and Kerry Brown, that you're both in the trade of
> selling computers with and without Vista?
> I can't recall exactly who made the comment, but I think you'd both
> probably agree, that avoiding budget buys with trial software on low-end
> hardware - as opposed to up to date hardware with paired down, but fully
> operational, software - is a far better way to ensure happier PC running
> in
> the short and long term.
> And that a system built up with Vista in mind should run smoothly.
>
> But also keep in mind (and as you both have a far greater
> knowledge/experience of PC's in general) that Vista is still a shakey
> creature. And though Vista Home Prem seems great from the outset as a
> basic
> platform for all multimedia home purposes, if you're not paying attention
> to
> exactly what (and how) goes onto your computer, Vista seems to 'break'
> under
> the pressure far easier.
> And for novices - which I most certainly am - that can be a bit of a
> baptism of fire; almost bad enough to make you give up and either 'go
> Apple'
> or just retreat to the relative assurance of XP.
>
> Maybe it's a point that's been made a million times before, and I've just
> missed it all, but I think it's relevent; especially to newcomers to PC
> (as I
> am). I do like Vista, and I want to like it MORE; aesthetics of an OS are
> important to me, if they weren't - I'd make do with black and white high
> contrast menus - and Vista often looks great. Its windows' set-ups just
> seem
> to be more logical than Macs, and not having been previously indocrinated
> to
> XP, it's all new to me anyway.
> But nor can I avoid the utter meltdowns and repeated 'crisis of faith'
> moments. We spent £800+ on this machine, and frankly, I'd expect it to
> (with
> reason) do everything I want without issue (run ONE game properly...
> Photoshop, web etc)
> Maybe people just need to be a bit more aware that you need to be a
> little
> bit more attentive with the new OS - or things can slip easily.
> Cheers for listening.

I agree with Andre. You don't mention any specific issues so it's hard to
respond. Despite all the trolls in these newsgroups saying there's really
not much difference between XP and Vista there is a very big difference
between the two. It is very different from the User Interface perspective
and it is very different how it works under the hood as well. I have been
using Vista since it was called Longhorn in the early beta versions. I have
installed Vista on many computers. Some could barely run it and had nothing
but problems. Most ran it OK with a few minor problems. The ones I build now
run Vista very well with no problems other than the self induced variety. I
have a desktop running Vista Ultimate x64 and a laptop running Vista
Business x86 that I use every day with no crashes. I do all the normal
things PC users do - run Office applications, edit graphics, do a little
programming, surf the Internet, burn CD's and DVD's, and attach printers,
camera's, and Smart Phones. They key is using components that are high
quality (this applies to any OS) and making sure that stable drivers are
available for all the hardware that goes into the system. Many budget
computers have power supplies that cost less than $20.00 wholesale. A good
power supply is around $45.00 wholesale. A marginal PSU could cause serious
instability problems that are very hard to diagnose. These types of problems
often get blamed on the OS. The PSU is just one component of the many in a
PC. Cutting costs on any of the components will have consequences. The large
OEMs cut costs on all the components until you get into their higher priced
lines.

Sorry for the long rambling reply but I get tired of people complaining with
no details :-)

I'd be happy to help you sort out the problems you are having if you'd post
some details.

--
Kerry Brown
Microsoft MVP - Shell/User
http://www.vistahelp.ca/phpBB2/


"Spanishcat" <> wrote in message
news:89B7AF3F-A9AB-40CB-BFC7-...
> I've tried to keep to tech queries (lord knows I've got enough tech
> probs),
> but reading around some of the posts just got me too curious not to
> comment.
> I understand, dzomlija and Kerry Brown, that you're both in the trade of
> selling computers with and without Vista?
> I can't recall exactly who made the comment, but I think you'd both
> probably agree, that avoiding budget buys with trial software on low-end
> hardware - as opposed to up to date hardware with paired down, but fully
> operational, software - is a far better way to ensure happier PC running
> in
> the short and long term.
> And that a system built up with Vista in mind should run smoothly.
>
> But also keep in mind (and as you both have a far greater
> knowledge/experience of PC's in general) that Vista is still a shakey
> creature. And though Vista Home Prem seems great from the outset as a
> basic
> platform for all multimedia home purposes, if you're not paying attention
> to
> exactly what (and how) goes onto your computer, Vista seems to 'break'
> under
> the pressure far easier.
> And for novices - which I most certainly am - that can be a bit of a
> baptism of fire; almost bad enough to make you give up and either 'go
> Apple'
> or just retreat to the relative assurance of XP.
>
> Maybe it's a point that's been made a million times before, and I've just
> missed it all, but I think it's relevent; especially to newcomers to PC
> (as I
> am). I do like Vista, and I want to like it MORE; aesthetics of an OS are
> important to me, if they weren't - I'd make do with black and white high
> contrast menus - and Vista often looks great. Its windows' set-ups just
> seem
> to be more logical than Macs, and not having been previously indocrinated
> to
> XP, it's all new to me anyway.
> But nor can I avoid the utter meltdowns and repeated 'crisis of faith'
> moments. We spent £800+ on this machine, and frankly, I'd expect it to
> (with
> reason) do everything I want without issue (run ONE game properly...
> Photoshop, web etc)
> Maybe people just need to be a bit more aware that you need to be a
> little
> bit more attentive with the new OS - or things can slip easily.
> Cheers for listening.

Maybe my post was obfuscated somehow, and my attitude misunderstood.
Apologies for that. My intention was anything but an out-and-out attack on
Vista - on the contrary, I like it, and do feel it gets a lot of unneccessary
stick. More patience with a new system is a good thing. My observation was
that maybe end-users need a little more help in preparing for teething
problems. When it next comes to getting my own PC, I'll be far better
prepared.

And with regards to me complaining about my own tech probs, that wasn't
really the intention either. Other than saying "it crashes a fair bit and I'd
really rather it didn't", I don't have easily identifiable glitches (possible
memory corruptions). I've had serious problems, and with the help of some
guys/gals here and another site, I've side-stepped them and gotten the ship
back to reasonably steady running. Though I am still in the ongoing process
of isolating exactly what's wrong to make the best of this rig.
Anyhowz...
Again, apologies for the potentially crossed-wires/intentions.

If I could get some advice, it would be: what's the best way to run
diagnostics across the system and hardware - or; how best to start narrowing
down possible causes?
In the last month following the miracle of working broadband I've amassed
a "gotta catch 'em all!" Pokemon-style collection of error codes. Yet nearly
all of the "Vista has recovered from an unexpected shutdown"-post-BSOD
reports (from the More Info tab) relate to the very same few locations;
C:\Users\...\AppData\Local\Temp\WER-662286-0.sysdata.xml
C:\Users\...\AppData\Local\Temp\WER36C8.tmp.versio n.txt
Is this in anyway relevent? Or are the error codes the only thing to pay
attention to.

When I stipulated the specs, I only really concerned myself personally
with the Core2Duo E6400's, a moderate graphics card (GeForce 7600GT), 2gigs
of RAM, and a reasonable hard drive. Firefire and wireless adapter were the
only other details. The rest was down to them from the ASUS SLI-capable board
to the generic PSU etc. They DID actually forget to the include the second
stick of RAM on delivery, but they popped it in the next day. Could I have
been sold some below-par components aside from the main kit?
Well, enough of the typing already...
Basic request for aid is: best ways to run diagnostics - or are filscan
and the bootable memory tool good enough? (ran a file scan and it verified
98%, but could not validate or repair the found errors)

Spanishcat;537129 Wrote:
> Maybe my post was obfuscated somehow, and my attitude misunderstood.
> Apologies for that. My intention was anything but an out-and-out attack
> on
> Vista - on the contrary, I like it, and do feel it gets a lot of
> unneccessary
> stick. More patience with a new system is a good thing. My observation
> was
> that maybe end-users need a little more help in preparing for teething
> problems. When it next comes to getting my own PC, I'll be far better
> prepared.
>
> And with regards to me complaining about my own tech probs, that wasn't
> really the intention either. Other than saying "it crashes a fair bit
> and I'd
> really rather it didn't", I don't have easily identifiable glitches
> (possible
> memory corruptions). I've had serious problems, and with the help of
> some
> guys/gals here and another site, I've side-stepped them and gotten the
> ship
> back to reasonably steady running. Though I am still in the ongoing
> process
> of isolating exactly what's wrong to make the best of this rig.
> Anyhowz...
> Again, apologies for the potentially crossed-wires/intentions.
>
> If I could get some advice, it would be: what's the best way to run
> diagnostics across the system and hardware - or; how best to start
> narrowing
> down possible causes?
> In the last month following the miracle of working broadband I've
> amassed
> a "gotta catch 'em all!" Pokemon-style collection of error codes. Yet
> nearly
> all of the "Vista has recovered from an unexpected shutdown"-post-BSOD
> reports (from the More Info tab) relate to the very same few locations;
> C:\Users\...\AppData\Local\Temp\WER-662286-0.sysdata.xml
> C:\Users\...\AppData\Local\Temp\WER36C8.tmp.versio n.txt
> Is this in anyway relevent? Or are the error codes the only thing to
> pay
> attention to.
>
> When I stipulated the specs, I only really concerned myself personally
> with the Core2Duo E6400's, a moderate graphics card (GeForce 7600GT),
> 2gigs
> of RAM, and a reasonable hard drive. Firefire and wireless adapter were
> the
> only other details. The rest was down to them from the ASUS SLI-capable
> board
> to the generic PSU etc. They DID actually forget to the include the
> second
> stick of RAM on delivery, but they popped it in the next day. Could I
> have
> been sold some below-par components aside from the main kit?
> Well, enough of the typing already...
> Basic request for aid is: best ways to run diagnostics - or are filscan
> and the bootable memory tool good enough? (ran a file scan and it
> verified
> 98%, but could not validate or repair the found errors)

Apology accepted, although I'm not sure to which post you are refering,
or even why you feel it necessary to apologise.

But to answer your question about running dianostics, I myself have yet
to see any one single tool that will help to diagnose and solve a
problem. I don't think such a tool exists, really.

The real problem stems from the fact that there is never only one cause
to any particular problem. If you can bear with me for a minute, I'll
give you an example that I experience myself:

Several months ago, my computer would slow down down horribly and then
BSOD (STOP 0x124 or 0x121, i think) without warning. This was usually
preceded by a nasty grinding sound and a click coming from one of my
hard disks. Investigations led me to believe that there is a conflict
between my RAID controller and sound card, and that I need to update the
drivers.

That didn't work. So I checked for viruses and malware, which proved to
be a fruitless excercise, because the system came up clean.

The noise from the hard disk that preceded the crash become so regular,
that I could predict the crash. I tried different RAID configurations
because I noticed that the problem started shortly after setting up
JBOD. This didn't work. Even completely turning off RAID didn't work.
Removing all the drives from the RAID controller did. This led me to the
conclusion that one (or more) of the hard disks was failing.

So I connected all the drives again and ran a S.M.A.R.T tool to
determine which one it was. All the HDDs checked out ok. Again removing
all the RAID connected HDDs, and inserting them one at a time eventually
highlighted the culprit. So I resigned myself to replacing the faulty
HDD.

But before I had a chance to do this, I noticed a odd setting in my
BIOS. All my hard disks, except the one that was giving me the problem,
had 32-Bit Disk Access enabled. So I enabled 32-Bit Disk Access for the
problem drive. And would you believe it the problem went away. The
grind-click-BSOD has not occured again in months. The symptoms where
those of a pending hardware failure, but the solution was to correct a
bad setting in the BIOS.


The point I'm trying to make is that the best tool for solving a
problem is a simple process of elimination. This becomes easier with
experience, and it has the greatest chance of success.


--
dzomlija

____________________________________
Peter Alexander Dzomlija
Do you hear, huh? The Alpha and The Omega? Death and Rebirth? -And as
you die, so shall I be Reborn-...

- ASUS A8N32-SLI-Deluxe
- AMD Athlon 64 Dual-Core 4800+
- 4GB DDR400
- 128MB ASUS nVidia 6600 PCI-Express
- Thermaltake Tai-Chi Watercooled Chassis
- 1207GB Total Formatted Storage
- Vista Ultimate x64
- CodeGear Delphi 2007See my rig at:
http://s229.photobucket.com/albums/e...zomlija/Venus/

My Weblog:
'http://dzomlija.spaces.live.com/' (http://dzomlija.spaces.live.com/)

"Spanishcat" <> wrote in message
news:3698F8B2-1D9A-40A4-BCDD-...
> Maybe my post was obfuscated somehow, and my attitude misunderstood.
> Apologies for that. My intention was anything but an out-and-out attack on
> Vista - on the contrary, I like it, and do feel it gets a lot of
> unneccessary
> stick. More patience with a new system is a good thing. My observation was
> that maybe end-users need a little more help in preparing for teething
> problems. When it next comes to getting my own PC, I'll be far better
> prepared.
>
> And with regards to me complaining about my own tech probs, that wasn't
> really the intention either. Other than saying "it crashes a fair bit and
> I'd
> really rather it didn't", I don't have easily identifiable glitches
> (possible
> memory corruptions). I've had serious problems, and with the help of some
> guys/gals here and another site, I've side-stepped them and gotten the
> ship
> back to reasonably steady running. Though I am still in the ongoing
> process
> of isolating exactly what's wrong to make the best of this rig.
> Anyhowz...
> Again, apologies for the potentially crossed-wires/intentions.

No apology needed.

>
> If I could get some advice, it would be: what's the best way to run
> diagnostics across the system and hardware - or; how best to start
> narrowing
> down possible causes?
> In the last month following the miracle of working broadband I've amassed
> a "gotta catch 'em all!" Pokemon-style collection of error codes. Yet
> nearly
> all of the "Vista has recovered from an unexpected shutdown"-post-BSOD
> reports (from the More Info tab) relate to the very same few locations;
> C:\Users\...\AppData\Local\Temp\WER-662286-0.sysdata.xml
> C:\Users\...\AppData\Local\Temp\WER36C8.tmp.versio n.txt
> Is this in anyway relevent? Or are the error codes the only thing to pay
> attention to.
>

The full information of the error is necessary to do any troubleshooting.
BSOD's related to files in your temp folder are often related to malware.


> When I stipulated the specs, I only really concerned myself personally
> with the Core2Duo E6400's, a moderate graphics card (GeForce 7600GT),
> 2gigs
> of RAM, and a reasonable hard drive. Firefire and wireless adapter were
> the
> only other details. The rest was down to them from the ASUS SLI-capable
> board
> to the generic PSU etc. They DID actually forget to the include the second
> stick of RAM on delivery, but they popped it in the next day. Could I have
> been sold some below-par components aside from the main kit?
> Well, enough of the typing already...
> Basic request for aid is: best ways to run diagnostics - or are filscan
> and the bootable memory tool good enough? (ran a file scan and it verified
> 98%, but could not validate or repair the found errors)

Without physically inspecting your computer I have no idea what the quality
of the parts inside are. You mention RAM. I can buy generic RAM very
cheaply. It often causes many intermittent problems. Many years ago I
switched to only using Kingston RAM. Many of the intermittent problems I was
seeing with brand new systems went away. I still occasionally get bad RAM in
a brand new system but it's usually very obvious and Kingston offers a
replacement warranty no questions asked. It's also almost double the price
of the lowest priced RAM I can buy. Guess which RAM most system builders use
when a customer is price oriented. You mention ASUS. ASUS is a well known
brand that I sometimes use. They basically have three m/b product lines,
budget, mid-range, and high end. Guess which ones are more likely to have
problems. You are more likely to get a good m/b when using a name brand like
ASUS but even then you get what you pay for. Even though ASUS is a respected
brand they have had a lot of problems with Vista on some of their
motherboards due to ACPI problems. For the most part this can be fixed by
installing the newest BIOS but in some cases, some of their older m/b's just
don't work right with Vista. Because of this some distributors are selling
off some of these older boards at deep discounts. Unscrupulous dealers use
these boards and the unsuspecting customer thinks they have a high end
system because it has an ASUS m/b. When they have problems the dealer blames
Vista. Note that any ASUS board that supports the E6400 doesn't have this
problem :-)

Diagnosing computer problems takes a lot of experience and an arsenal of
tools. Knowing which tool to use and when is where the experience comes in
handy. It sounds like you ran the SFC tool. I don't trust this tool if it's
run from Windows. To use this tool you really need to boot from the Vista
DVD to a command prompt. Even then it is a very blunt instrument. I rarely
use it. There isn't any one tool I'd recommend. Here are some I use.

http://www.microsoft.com/technet/sys...s/default.mspx

http://www.memtest.org/

http://www.ultimatebootcd.com/

http://www.nu2.nu/pebuilder/

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...displaylang=en

--
Kerry Brown
Microsoft MVP - Shell/User
http://www.vistahelp.ca/phpBB2/