Facts on the "Upgrade Loophole"

In message <> Leythos
<> wrote:

>You misunderstand - The XP SP2+ updates are what I was talking about. If
>I were to virgin install XP +SP2 + almost 70 updates, it would still be
>about the same amount of time as the initial Vista Business install
>without the key and then the reinstall with the key. I've done this
>enough times on enough machines to be sure that installing vist using
>the "Upgrade" path is slower than installing XP.

Ahh -- Odd. Windows XP takes about 35-40 minutes to install on my
machine, Vista takes just under 20 (in both cases, from the initial boot
to the at-desktop, ready-to-be-activated stage)

XP requires a number of additional drivers simply to network (NVIDIA
gigabit ethernet chipset), whereas Vista gets running off the ground,
which saves a fair amount of time as well.

Is the Vista-over-Vista install really that much slower then
Vista-over-XP?
--
Insert something clever here.

In article <>,
says...
> In message <> Leythos
> <> wrote:
>
> >You misunderstand - The XP SP2+ updates are what I was talking about. If
> >I were to virgin install XP +SP2 + almost 70 updates, it would still be
> >about the same amount of time as the initial Vista Business install
> >without the key and then the reinstall with the key. I've done this
> >enough times on enough machines to be sure that installing vist using
> >the "Upgrade" path is slower than installing XP.
>
> Ahh -- Odd. Windows XP takes about 35-40 minutes to install on my
> machine, Vista takes just under 20 (in both cases, from the initial boot
> to the at-desktop, ready-to-be-activated stage)
>
> XP requires a number of additional drivers simply to network (NVIDIA
> gigabit ethernet chipset), whereas Vista gets running off the ground,
> which saves a fair amount of time as well.
>
> Is the Vista-over-Vista install really that much slower then
> Vista-over-XP?

When I do an XP install I normally have to load drivers for video, intel
chipset, and NIC, when I do Vista, so far, I've had to hack a driver for
Nvidia chipset, find Aerthos wireless drivers and while the initial
install of each, to get to that point was faster under Vista, being that
you have to have an OS to install the upgrade to vista, the dual install
of vista (install on wiped drive without using key, then install from
vista using a key) the second install took a LOT longer than the fresh
install.

--
- remove 999 to reply to me.
Using Gravity on Vista for your pleasure

You missed the point.

Because you have to upgrade Vista from an existing OS, you have to start by
installing either XP or installing Vista (not as an upgrade). It is that
part where installing Vista first will be the faster, and cleaner, solution.
The second part, the upgrade installation of Vista over whichever you chose
first, will be the same either way.

Dale

"Leythos" <> wrote in message
news:. ..
> In article <e$>,
> says...
>> Do the same thing starting with XP. It will take even longer.
>
> Nope, I've done thousands of XP installs from scratch, on a virgin
> drive, and vista takes must longer using the "Upgrade" method. I retail
> install is quicker, but the upgrade method, where you install twice,
> takes much longer.
>
>
> --
> - remove 999 to reply to me.
> Using Gravity on Vista for your pleasure

Sorry, but your workaround is not supported by Microsoft
and does, in fact, violate the EULA. Please review the following:

The Vista license “loophole� that isn’t:
http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=420

--
Carey Frisch
Microsoft MVP
Windows Desktop Experience -
Windows System & Performance




"Chad Harris" wrote:

> Ed Bott's Microsoft Report
>
> Vista Hands On #4: Clean install with an upgrade key
> February 15th, 2007
> http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=196#more-196
>
> I've been reading the breathless reports from other websites this week about
> the "Vista upgrade loophole." Most of it is typical echo-chamber stuff, and
> most of the reports I've read so far have gotten the basic facts wrong. The
> Setup feature they're describing isn't a loophole at all. It's a perfectly
> legal workaround for an amazingly stupid technical restriction that
> Microsoft imposes on upgraders. In this installment of my Vista Hands On
> series, I provide the background to help you understand exactly what's going
> on and how you can legally perform a clean install using an upgrade key.
>
> Let's start with a few essential facts:
>
> All retail copies of Windows Vista use the exact same media. The DVD
> contains all editions and can be used to perform a full installation or an
> upgrade. If you compare a full retail copy of Windows Vista Ultimate and an
> upgrade copy of Windows Vista Home Basic, you'll find that the installation
> media for the two products are virtually identical.
> The product key included with the copy you purchase determines how the Setup
> program behaves. These behaviors are hard-coded into the Setup program based
> on the key you enter. Specifically, the Setup program is able to look at
> your key and use an algorithm to determine the edition it "unlocks." The
> same algorithm determines whether you are allowed to use that key for an
> upgrade or a clean install or both.
> The license agreement for a Vista upgrade copy requires that the machine
> already be licensed for Windows. This license agreement does not restrict
> the method of installation in any way. Section 13 of the agreement reads as
> follows:
> UPGRADES. To use upgrade software, you must first be licensed for the
> software that is eligible for the upgrade. Upon upgrade, this agreement
> takes the place of the agreement for the software you upgraded from. After
> you upgrade, you may no longer use the software you upgraded from.
> When you run Setup with an upgrade key, the installer does not check to see
> whether you're really eligible. In fact, Microsoft's licensing
> infrastructure - the activation and validation servers it uses to check
> product keys against hardware hashes - does not (yet) contain any mechanism
> to match up your upgrade license with a previous license.
> To use an upgrade product key, you must start the Vista Setup program from
> Windows 2000, Windows XP, or any edition of Windows Vista. Your previous
> version of Windows doesn't have to be activated. Even an evaluation copy of
> the edition of Windows Vista you purchased will allow you to run the Setup
> program with an upgrade key. (Remember that last part.)
> Got all that? Good. Now let's put the pieces together.
>
>
> I'm going to assume that you have a PC that came with Windows XP
> preinstalled by the PC maker. Any OEM version of Windows XP is eligible to
> upgrade to any edition of Windows Vista. So you purchase a retail upgrade
> copy of Vista Ultimate. In the box is a DVD and a 25-character product key.
>
> You don't want to do what Microsoft calls an in-place upgrade, which
> preserves your installed programs and data files but has a greater risk of
> migrating your problems as well. Instead, you want to do a clean install.
> But there's a problem: Microsoft used a crude technique to make clean
> installs more difficult for upgraders. If you boot from the Vista DVD and
> enter an upgrade key, you'll see this error message and will not be able to
> go any further:
>
>
>
> Now, this restriction is stupid, because even Microsoft acknowledges that
> you can be legally entitled to purchase the upgrade version and yet have to
> do a clean install. (See the notes on Microsoft's official Windows Vista
> Upgrade Paths from Previous Versions page, for example, which says: "If you
> are currently using Windows 2000 Professional or Windows XP Professional
> x64, you are eligible for an upgrade copy to a corresponding or better
> edition of Windows Vista, but a clean install is required." Ahem.)
>
> This silly technical restriction is not required by the license agreement.
> It's designed to frustrate anyone who wants to use the upgrade version on a
> new PC without an operating system and get them to pay more for a full
> version. But it's easily worked around.
>
> Your easiest option - by far - is to use the PC maker's system recovery
> media to restore an image of Windows XP as it existed when you first got the
> computer, and then install Vista. I can hear the complaints now: "That copy
> is out of date. It's loaded with crummy, obsolete drivers and crapware."
> Yes, I know. That doesn't matter. Every bit of that junk will be erased soon
> enough. It will never get mixed with your new Vista setup.
>
> After you finish restoring that original system image, start Windows, insert
> the Vista DVD, and run Vista's Setup program. Follow the steps I listed in
> Vista Hands On #2: A no-fuss, nondestructive clean install, this time using
> your upgrade product key. When you're done, use the Disk Cleanup tool to
> remove all traces of your old installation. You have a fresh, clean system
> and you are in perfect compliance with your license agreement.
>
> What if you don't have a restore CD? In that case, you can install an
> evaluation copy of Windows Vista on the system, specifically to allow you to
> run Setup. Here's how:
>
> 1. Boot from the DVD and click Install Now.
>
> 2. Leave the product key box blank. Instead, click Next.
>
> 3. Click No in this warning dialog box.
>
>
>
> 4. From the list of Vista editions, choose the one that matches the upgrade
> you purchased.
>
>
>
> 5. Complete the installation, accepting all defaults.
>
> Do whatever minimal steps are required to start your new installation for
> the first time. Wouldn't it be nice if you could enter your perfectly legal,
> fully paid-for product key now and just make the installation complete?
> Sorry, you can't do that.
>
> Instead, you need to run Setup again, this time from within Windows Vista.
> Don't choose the Upgrade option unless you want to spend an hour or two
> migrating your nonpersonalized default Vista settings. Instead, do a
> nondestructive clean install. When that's done (it should go very quickly),
> use the Disk Cleanup tool to blow away the redundant installation in
> Windows.old. You're now good to go.
>
> Now, was that a loophole? No. You satisfied every condition of the license
> agreement and aren't skating by on a technicality. The fact that you have to
> use a kludgey workaround to use the license you've purchased and are legally
> entitled to is Microsoft's fault.
>
>
>

Carey Frisch [MVP] wrote:
> Sorry, but your workaround is not supported by Microsoft
> and does, in fact, violate the EULA. Please review the following:
>
> The Vista license “loophole� that isn’t:
> http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=420
>

Not a license "loophole".
The packaging says you have the option to update Windows 2000 to Vista.
But, you can't upgrade Windows 2000 to Vista; because the upgrade only
runs on XP or Vista only.
So, Windows 2000 users have the legal edge in performing the upgrade in
this manner.

James

"Carey Frisch [MVP]" <> wrote in message
news:B7DB4F9E-742D-4CB2-865B-...
> Sorry, but your workaround is not supported by Microsoft
> and does, in fact, violate the EULA. Please review the following:
>
> The Vista license "loophole" that isn't:
> http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=420


April 3, 2008 - Psst! Wanna save $110 on Windows Vista SP1?
Microsoft still letting buyers 'upgrade' to Vista without XP or 2000
[ http://tinyurl.com/3txuu4 ]

"Experts say Microsoft is giving its quiet blessing to the loophole in order
to boost interest in Vista among the tech-savvy users likely to exploit it."

"The fact that the upgrade edition will still upgrade over itself in Vista
SP1 proves that Microsoft executives knowingly support the upgrade trick,"
said Brian Livingston, editorial director of the "Windows Secrets"
newsletter"

"Just because a piece of software installs on a PC, does not mean that it is properly licensed,"
wrote a spokeswoman in an e-mail. "The licensing states that upgrades require a fully licensed
version of Windows to be eligible to use an Upgrade license."

--
Carey Frisch
Microsoft MVP
Windows Desktop Experience -
Windows System & Performance

---------------------------------------------------------------

"john" wrote:
April 3, 2008 - Psst! Wanna save $110 on Windows Vista SP1?
Microsoft still letting buyers 'upgrade' to Vista without XP or 2000
[ http://tinyurl.com/3txuu4 ]

"Experts say Microsoft is giving its quiet blessing to the loophole in order
to boost interest in Vista among the tech-savvy users likely to exploit it."

"The fact that the upgrade edition will still upgrade over itself in Vista
SP1 proves that Microsoft executives knowingly support the upgrade trick,"
said Brian Livingston, editorial director of the "Windows Secrets"
newsletter"

Carey Frisch [MVP] wrote:
> Sorry, but your workaround is not supported by Microsoft
> and does, in fact, violate the EULA. Please review the following:
>
> The Vista license “loophole� that isn’t:
> http://blogs.zdnet.com/Bott/?p=420
>

It's against the Vista EULA to do a clean install with an upgrade disc?!
Carey, you really need to stop spouting crap out your rear end into the
newsgroup(s). You could stop if you could get your head out of your arse!

http://www.microscum.com/carey/

Carey shows himself to be the Most Voluminous Poopshooter of the group
again!


--
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creativity and innovation that is a hallmark of this country. Consumer
rights in the digital age are not frivolous."
- Maura Corbett