General MS attitude toward design

I'm a power user. I've been using PCs since MS-DOS-Only days. Rather than
just rant like several I've seen, I'm going to try and be constructive. I
hold no hope it will have an affect, but I'll feel better if I say it.

I just purchased a new custom built Vista Ultimate Machine with 3Ghz
Core2Duo 2GB RAM. I also purchased Office Pro and am a very heavy Access
user in my work. In general, there are many things I like about Vista. So
far I like the new Office UI and am warming to the new Vista UI as well. I
am (though old and experienced) pretty open minded to changes and the
evolution of the products. In my view, MS has a single fatal flaw that
prevents them from being premier at anything but marketing and monopolizing.
That is - their fundamental design assumption that they always know what's
best and generally refuse to allow anyone else to have a divergent opinion.
I truly understand and appreciate the need for so many wizards. I understand
that most PC users need guidance and support. In my view, however, it is
unforgivable that there are not easy-access 'portals' for advanced users.
We're not all beginners!

I work with massive Access databases all day every day as a software
consultant with a client list that includes several Fortune 500 companies. I
nearly cried when I first opened my databases on my new monster machine to
discover that they were MUCH slower to respond than on the 4-year-old XP
machine I replaced. Patiently I searched and tweaked until I removed
virtually every kind of error checking and 'let Microsoft do it for you'
option I could find. Performance is now acceptable but certainly
disappointing and I have no doubt there is much going on behind the scenes
that is nothing more than unnecessary bloat for my purposes that I wish I
could eliminate.

The ultimate impetus for this post however is the truly disgusting backup
utility. Talk about dumbed down! Once again, I truly do understand the need
to make things simple for the average user. There is no possible viable
explanation, however, for why there is no 'advanced' mode where I can ignore
your wizard and specify how and what I want backed up specifically. I have a
150mb program drive and a terra byte for data. I want to CHOOSE what gets
backed up so I don't have buy a server farm for my backups! I've been
writing software for 30 years. I know what it takes for you to create all
those wizards and try to make things user-friendly. I also know that it
would not be a big deal, by comparison, to add the kind of flexibility
customers like me require. Once again.... I'm going to have to go buy a 3rd
party product for something that MS really has no excuse not to provide.
This example is, I believe, indicative a general MS flaw in design approach
applicable to all your products. Simplify it all you want... but for
heaven's sake get out of my way! Let me do what I need to do. I know
you've heard this before. Every time a new Windows comes out I foolishly
hold out a little hope that MS finally gets it and realizes that all their
customers are not new to PCs and has incorporated that concept into their
software. Every time, I'm disappointed again. Sigh.


----------------
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http://windowshelp.microsoft.com/com....vista.general

=?Utf-8?B?UGF0IEtlbGxlcg==?= <>
wrote in news:3509DE7A-A219-4AD4-8497-:

> This example is, I believe, indicative a general MS flaw in design
> approach applicable to all your products. Simplify it all you
> want... but for heaven's sake get out of my way! Let me do what I
> need to do. I know you've heard this before. Every time a new
> Windows comes out I foolishly hold out a little hope that MS
> finally gets it and realizes that all their customers are not new
> to PCs and has incorporated that concept into their software.
> Every time, I'm disappointed again. Sigh.

Here's Microsoft's answer:
(http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/ar.../28/54583.aspx)

Why doesn't Windows have an "expert mode"?

We often get requests like this:

There should be a slider bar somewhere, say on the Performance
Tab, that ranges from Novice to Advanced. At the highest level, all
the geek settings are turned on. At the Novice level, all the
settings for beginners are turned on. In between, we can gradually
enable stuff.

We've been trying to do something like this since even before Windows
95, and it doesn't work.

It doesn't work because somebody who is a whiz at Excel will rate
themselves as Advanced even though they can't tell a CPU from a box
of Cracker Jacks.

They're not stupid. They really are advanced users. Just not advanced
at the skill we're asking them about.

And before you go mocking the non-geeks: Even geeks don't know
everything. I know a lot about GUI programming, but I only know a
little about disk partitioning, and I don't know squat about Active
Directory. So am I an expert?

Adam
--
Visit my PC Tech blog at www.leinss.com/blog

On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 10:50:03 -0700, Pat Keller
<> wrote:

>Let me do what I need to do. I know
>you've heard this before. Every time a new Windows comes out I foolishly
>hold out a little hope that MS finally gets it and realizes that all their
>customers are not new to PCs and has incorporated that concept into their
>software. Every time, I'm disappointed again. Sigh.

You summed it up rather well. A lot of experienced users kept their
fingers crossed that the latest version of Windows would actually be a
REAL improvement over the last and we get conned into upgrading only
to be disappointed all over again.

I guess it is just wishful thinking to expect that with all the
resources Microsoft has and supposedly the talent and obviously the
cash they actually would be capable of making a MAJOR improvement in
Windows. Instead they push bloatware out the door, not really tested
and crying out for a service pack and still plagued with all kinds of
security issues.

One thing about software in general. There is the right way to write
it, a wrong way and Microsoft's way which is take it or leave it. They
simply don't listen to their customers, take us for granted, are
arrogant, stumbling and just do enough to squeak by. The business plan
at Microsoft is to excel at mediocrity. When you think about it
Microsoft models itself after the government. You don't really expect
them to do a great job, just hope they don't really screw up. Of
course with the Bush Administration you DO expect them to screw up
since they have seven years practice doing exactly that, still you
keep your fingers crossed they won't be responsible for any more major
blunders. Yea right, sure I believe that. <snicker>

I agree and understand that users often over-rate their own skills. It is
not Microsoft's job, however, to save them from themselves at the expense of
those who really need the advanced capabilities. It's a bogus reply - and
proves my original point that that the MS 'attitude' toward software design
is flawed. They really don't get the concept as a corporation -- and they're
wrong. They literally look down to their users and build to the lowest
common denominator. I still could understand that if they simply allowed
those of us who know what we're doing to be able to do it. Forget a slider,
Microsoft. The decision and coding process around what goes where on the
slider would be impossible to well-implement. Just give us an 'expert' mode
and let the user decide whether or not to take the risk. Put all the
discalimers up you want. The fear-mongering should scare most away but still
allow the real geeks to do what they need to do.

"Adam Leinss" wrote:

> =?Utf-8?B?UGF0IEtlbGxlcg==?= <>
> wrote in news:3509DE7A-A219-4AD4-8497-:
>
> > This example is, I believe, indicative a general MS flaw in design
> > approach applicable to all your products. Simplify it all you
> > want... but for heaven's sake get out of my way! Let me do what I
> > need to do. I know you've heard this before. Every time a new
> > Windows comes out I foolishly hold out a little hope that MS
> > finally gets it and realizes that all their customers are not new
> > to PCs and has incorporated that concept into their software.
> > Every time, I'm disappointed again. Sigh.
>
> Here's Microsoft's answer:
> (http://blogs.msdn.com/oldnewthing/ar.../28/54583.aspx)
>
> Why doesn't Windows have an "expert mode"?
>
> We often get requests like this:
>
> There should be a slider bar somewhere, say on the Performance
> Tab, that ranges from Novice to Advanced. At the highest level, all
> the geek settings are turned on. At the Novice level, all the
> settings for beginners are turned on. In between, we can gradually
> enable stuff.
>
> We've been trying to do something like this since even before Windows
> 95, and it doesn't work.
>
> It doesn't work because somebody who is a whiz at Excel will rate
> themselves as Advanced even though they can't tell a CPU from a box
> of Cracker Jacks.
>
> They're not stupid. They really are advanced users. Just not advanced
> at the skill we're asking them about.
>
> And before you go mocking the non-geeks: Even geeks don't know
> everything. I know a lot about GUI programming, but I only know a
> little about disk partitioning, and I don't know squat about Active
> Directory. So am I an expert?
>
> Adam
> --
> Visit my PC Tech blog at www.leinss.com/blog
>

> You summed it up rather well. A lot of experienced users kept their
> fingers crossed that the latest version of Windows would actually be a
> REAL improvement over the last and we get conned into upgrading only
> to be disappointed all over again.

Thanks. The problem, though, that we're not really conned -- we're forced.
The planned obsolescence gives us no choice but to eventually upgrade!

"Adam Albright" wrote:

> On Wed, 31 Oct 2007 10:50:03 -0700, Pat Keller
> <> wrote:
>
> >Let me do what I need to do. I know
> >you've heard this before. Every time a new Windows comes out I foolishly
> >hold out a little hope that MS finally gets it and realizes that all their
> >customers are not new to PCs and has incorporated that concept into their
> >software. Every time, I'm disappointed again. Sigh.
>
> You summed it up rather well. A lot of experienced users kept their
> fingers crossed that the latest version of Windows would actually be a
> REAL improvement over the last and we get conned into upgrading only
> to be disappointed all over again.
>
> I guess it is just wishful thinking to expect that with all the
> resources Microsoft has and supposedly the talent and obviously the
> cash they actually would be capable of making a MAJOR improvement in
> Windows. Instead they push bloatware out the door, not really tested
> and crying out for a service pack and still plagued with all kinds of
> security issues.
>
> One thing about software in general. There is the right way to write
> it, a wrong way and Microsoft's way which is take it or leave it. They
> simply don't listen to their customers, take us for granted, are
> arrogant, stumbling and just do enough to squeak by. The business plan
> at Microsoft is to excel at mediocrity. When you think about it
> Microsoft models itself after the government. You don't really expect
> them to do a great job, just hope they don't really screw up. Of
> course with the Bush Administration you DO expect them to screw up
> since they have seven years practice doing exactly that, still you
> keep your fingers crossed they won't be responsible for any more major
> blunders. Yea right, sure I believe that. <snicker>
>
>
>

Vista has the worst design, its a darn right CATASTROPHY... it has been such
a disappointment...

I WANT TO PUKE WHENEVER I AM FORCED TO USE HORRIBLE VISTA!!!!

Other STUPID designs are :
Windows Media player 11 (part of vista but available also on XP)
IE7 (part of vista but available also on XP)
The office 2007 Ribbon toolbars
Windows Live Mail Desktop (this is hideous)


"Pat Keller" <> wrote in message
news:3509DE7A-A219-4AD4-8497-...
> I'm a power user. I've been using PCs since MS-DOS-Only days. Rather
> than
> just rant like several I've seen, I'm going to try and be constructive. I
> hold no hope it will have an affect, but I'll feel better if I say it.
>
> I just purchased a new custom built Vista Ultimate Machine with 3Ghz
> Core2Duo 2GB RAM. I also purchased Office Pro and am a very heavy Access
> user in my work. In general, there are many things I like about Vista.
> So
> far I like the new Office UI and am warming to the new Vista UI as well.
> I
> am (though old and experienced) pretty open minded to changes and the
> evolution of the products. In my view, MS has a single fatal flaw that
> prevents them from being premier at anything but marketing and
> monopolizing.
> That is - their fundamental design assumption that they always know what's
> best and generally refuse to allow anyone else to have a divergent
> opinion.
> I truly understand and appreciate the need for so many wizards. I
> understand
> that most PC users need guidance and support. In my view, however, it is
> unforgivable that there are not easy-access 'portals' for advanced users.
> We're not all beginners!
>
> I work with massive Access databases all day every day as a software
> consultant with a client list that includes several Fortune 500 companies.
> I
> nearly cried when I first opened my databases on my new monster machine to
> discover that they were MUCH slower to respond than on the 4-year-old XP
> machine I replaced. Patiently I searched and tweaked until I removed
> virtually every kind of error checking and 'let Microsoft do it for you'
> option I could find. Performance is now acceptable but certainly
> disappointing and I have no doubt there is much going on behind the scenes
> that is nothing more than unnecessary bloat for my purposes that I wish I
> could eliminate.
>
> The ultimate impetus for this post however is the truly disgusting backup
> utility. Talk about dumbed down! Once again, I truly do understand the
> need
> to make things simple for the average user. There is no possible viable
> explanation, however, for why there is no 'advanced' mode where I can
> ignore
> your wizard and specify how and what I want backed up specifically. I
> have a
> 150mb program drive and a terra byte for data. I want to CHOOSE what gets
> backed up so I don't have buy a server farm for my backups! I've been
> writing software for 30 years. I know what it takes for you to create all
> those wizards and try to make things user-friendly. I also know that it
> would not be a big deal, by comparison, to add the kind of flexibility
> customers like me require. Once again.... I'm going to have to go buy a
> 3rd
> party product for something that MS really has no excuse not to provide.
> This example is, I believe, indicative a general MS flaw in design
> approach
> applicable to all your products. Simplify it all you want... but for
> heaven's sake get out of my way! Let me do what I need to do. I know
> you've heard this before. Every time a new Windows comes out I foolishly
> hold out a little hope that MS finally gets it and realizes that all their
> customers are not new to PCs and has incorporated that concept into their
> software. Every time, I'm disappointed again. Sigh.
>
>
> ----------------
> This post is a suggestion for Microsoft, and Microsoft responds to the
> suggestions with the most votes. To vote for this suggestion, click the "I
> Agree" button in the message pane. If you do not see the button, follow
> this
> link to open the suggestion in the Microsoft Web-based Newsreader and then
> click "I Agree" in the message pane.
>
> http://windowshelp.microsoft.com/com....vista.general

Pat, I agree that each o/s should offer improvements over the prior in
functionality and security.
The Vista Backup method might not provide the flexibility you desire,
though it is better than the prior o/s included applications.

I'm not sure I necessarily buy the entitlement part regarding backup
tools especially when other third party sources have been providing
products with a history of satisfied customers, obvious success,
programming and tech support resources and long term experience.

Imo, it also would seem obvious, that in running any business supporting
Fortune 500 clients that industry proven backup software protecting
important data would be a default choice rather than rely on a tool
bundled with an operating system.

--
...winston
MS-MVP Windows Live Mail


"Pat Keller" <> wrote in message
news:3509DE7A-A219-4AD4-8497-...
> I'm a power user. I've been using PCs since MS-DOS-Only days. Rather
> than
> just rant like several I've seen, I'm going to try and be
> constructive. I
> hold no hope it will have an affect, but I'll feel better if I say it.
>
> I just purchased a new custom built Vista Ultimate Machine with 3Ghz
> Core2Duo 2GB RAM.
> The ultimate impetus for this post however is the truly disgusting
> backup
> utility... customers like me require. Once again.... I'm going to
> have to go buy a 3rd
> party product for something that MS really has no excuse not to
> provide.

It's not about the backup tool. That was just an example. The point is that
the tool exists and it would a perfectly acceptable tool to use if MS simply
LET me use it. The roadblocks they put in the way cost time an money to
build. I'm perfectly capable of deciding on adequate backup methodology
without ANY tool, 3rd party or MS, to rely on.... good heaven's were only
copying data after all. I'd say that's a pretty basic OS function and I've
used manual copying for many years to control my own backups without a
problem.

My point is the attitude that says I'll spend all the money it takes to do
it the way I (MS) think it ought to be done - but not one cent toward
flexibility or any real user control. Of course this is an over
generalization, but as an MS customer for decades, it is undoubtedly the
prevailing way that software has been, is, and will - apparently - continue
to be developed at MS. Pity.

Words like 'improvement' and 'better' are like "beauty". They are in the
eye of the beholder. In general, what MS calls 'improvement' is more what I
would call 'bloat' with little value to me or other advanced users. I am not
ranting. This is quite simply a fact in my rather extensive experience.

"...winston" wrote:

> Pat, I agree that each o/s should offer improvements over the prior in
> functionality and security.
> The Vista Backup method might not provide the flexibility you desire,
> though it is better than the prior o/s included applications.
>
> I'm not sure I necessarily buy the entitlement part regarding backup
> tools especially when other third party sources have been providing
> products with a history of satisfied customers, obvious success,
> programming and tech support resources and long term experience.
>
> Imo, it also would seem obvious, that in running any business supporting
> Fortune 500 clients that industry proven backup software protecting
> important data would be a default choice rather than rely on a tool
> bundled with an operating system.
>
> --
> ...winston
> MS-MVP Windows Live Mail
>
>
> "Pat Keller" <> wrote in message
> news:3509DE7A-A219-4AD4-8497-...
> > I'm a power user. I've been using PCs since MS-DOS-Only days. Rather
> > than
> > just rant like several I've seen, I'm going to try and be
> > constructive. I
> > hold no hope it will have an affect, but I'll feel better if I say it.
> >
> > I just purchased a new custom built Vista Ultimate Machine with 3Ghz
> > Core2Duo 2GB RAM.
> > The ultimate impetus for this post however is the truly disgusting
> > backup
> > utility... customers like me require. Once again.... I'm going to
> > have to go buy a 3rd
> > party product for something that MS really has no excuse not to
> > provide.
>
>

"PUKE WHENEVER I AM FORCED TO USE"
Another ridiculous comment.
No one forced you.
You made the choice.
The fact you complain so much in general and complain about being
"FORCED" displays something of the processes you use in making
choices.

No one has been forced to use Windows Vista.
Exercise your choice, most everyone else does.

--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
http://www3.telus.net/dandemar
http://www.dts-l.org


"Tie Various" <> wrote in message
news:...
> Vista has the worst design, its a darn right CATASTROPHY... it has
> been such a disappointment...
>
> I WANT TO PUKE WHENEVER I AM FORCED TO USE HORRIBLE VISTA!!!!
>
> Other STUPID designs are :
> Windows Media player 11 (part of vista but available also on XP)
> IE7 (part of vista but available also on XP)
> The office 2007 Ribbon toolbars
> Windows Live Mail Desktop (this is hideous)

"we're forced"
Not at all.
We all have a choice and if Windows Vista does not suit you, there is
no reason why you should use it.

Windows XP computers will continue to be sold well into next year and
Windows XP will probably be supported for several years after that.

Of course you are right, no one is conned either since all the
necessary information is available.
Everyone is free to choose Windows Vista, Windows XP or any of the
many operating systems from other sources.

--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
http://www3.telus.net/dandemar
http://www.dts-l.org


"Pat Keller" <> wrote in message
news:84E9A54A-74D8-49FD-A367-...
> Thanks. The problem, though, that we're not really conned -- we're
> forced.
> The planned obsolescence gives us no choice but to eventually
> upgrade!