MSFT Connect Officially Rejects Public Access to Bugs

"CLOSED WON'T FIX" 9/16/06

All of these cheerleaders for MSFT who say they care what the public files
as to bugs should know they totally reject the idea of giving you any
meaningful access to the bugs filed on Connect.

On 6/5/06, I used Connect's feedback program (which I suppose is available
to anyone) to suggest that they open bugs to the public as well as their
Beta Chats and their Live Meetings that approximately 110 people max attend
on the average out of 27,000 TBTs.

The resolution was "CLOSED WON'T FIX" 9/16/06 and even though I designated
it public, they took it private to hide it in keeping with the devious MSFT
no-transparency culture now fostered by the new Sinofsky regime. It's the
same culture that has MSFT turning over all your MSN searches to the
government and their security bloggers lying to you about doing it as of
their meeting June 1 and 2 in Washington, D.C.

The suggestion complaint read:

"MSFT has deployed an attitude of utmost contempt for the public and the CPP
by restricting information from them and defeating any semblance of a
learning curve. Connect blocks access to bug reports by the public.

This is done with the intention of preventing their customsers from
contexting bugs, seeing bugs, realizing what won't be fixed or what is
deffered to "fix" and never will be by Blackcomb Vienna.

MSFT further in the most quintissential anti-education posture possible in
contrast to the Gates Foundation stomps all over the learning curves of
their customers with respect to Vista by

1) denying them access to Beta chats where some real info is exchanged that
only approximately 100-200 people out of 27000 Beta testors in different
groups including but not restricted to TBT and TAP and those added in the
last few months. Instead of sensibly providing a central link for all the
chats on the MSFT web site, say http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista and
the Technet site and MSDN they hide the chats. Selected MSDN bloggers put
selected chats on line, and afik the chats aren't under any NDA. How
inconsiderate to hide them from the public.

How anti learning for a company who considers its employees elete applicants
with creme de la crem academic pedigress although this is hardly the case.

2) MSFT also denies their public customer base who put food on their tables
and toys in their homes access to multiple *Beta Live Meetings on Vista (I'm
not talking about the infrequent and question limited Technet LMs) during
the week and refuses to archive them. They have no more than 200 and often
less attendies. There are 27000 plus TBTs.

3) MSFT also restricts their Beta newsgroups from the public and there is no
reason to do so. The public Vista grousp are considerably less in number,
and the information is considerably less in quality with even more newbie
questions than on the TBT groups.

MSFT's only regard for the public is in the context of a file and settings
transfer manger--to transfer as much bandwidth of cash into the MSFT pockets
from the public as possible.

MSFT has Community Liasons assigned to key Vista teams who have not lifted a
finger to publish comprehensive information on the MSFT public websites.
Excellent information is available on MSDN and Technet blogs, but they are
known and used by a limited number and subset of people.

No comprehensive and decent level information is available on SFC and Win RE
in Vista on any MSFT site. What is there is insulting to anyone with an
interest in Windows who is provides consistent considerable help for your
customers on your newsgroups.


Suggestion Category

Feedback (Bugs and Suggestions)



Recommendation

Correct this eggregious lack of information immediately.
1) Make the Beta chats public and archive them in a central place and
showcase this on your community websites and Vista sites.
2) Make the Beta Live Meetings all public and archive them in a central
place and showcase this on your community websites and Vista sites.
3) Stop hiding bug access for Beta testers. TBTs have offered to check
them for adults who are interested on your public newsgroups. That arms
length approach would be pathetic.
4) The public doesn't have any feedback as to efforts they expend to
give you bug information. MSFT doesn't give a damn what the unwashed public
thinks. Your arrogance that cost you nearly 250 million and growing fines
after Brad Smith's litigation with the European Union (make sure Brad gets a
big Christmas bonus) is systemically branded on this policy that is going to
generate untrained Vista users in your public customer base.
Get the Community writers on the Vista teams off their butts and have
them post comprehensive articles on the MSFT Vista sites, not some pathetic
cheerleading manual like the "Product Guide." You are about 50 days from an
October 25 Internal RTM which is shoving this half baked unfinished


Suggestion Category

Feedback (Bugs and Suggestions)



Recommendation

Correct this eggregious lack of information immediately.

1) Make the Beta chats public and archive them in a central place and
showcase this on your community websites and Vista sites.

2) Make the Beta Live Meetings all public and archive them in a central
place and showcase this on your community websites and Vista sites.


3) Stop hiding bug access for Beta testers. TBTs have offered to check them
for adults who are interested on your public newsgroups. That arms length
approach would be pathetic.


4) The public doesn't have any feedback as to efforts they expend to give
you bug information. MSFT doesn't give a damn what the unwashed public
thinks. Your arrogance that cost you nearly 250 million and growing fines
after Brad Smith's litigation with the European Union (make sure Brad gets a
big Christmas bonus) is systemically branded on this policy that is going to
generate untrained Vista users in your public customer base.


Get the Community writers on the Vista teams off their butts and have them
post comprehensive articles on the MSFT Vista sites, not some pathetic
cheerleading manual like the "Product Guide." You are about 50 days from an
October 25 Internal RTM which is shoving this half baked unfinished and if
anyone wants to see them RC1 replete flawed OS out the door.

Vista is not to use the MSFT synchophant mantra in the category that it
"like so rocks." That's crap.


A more realistic take is the article by Ed Bott who says if you stick to
your current time table it will be horrendous. Ed Bott is the author of MSFT
Press Windows Vista Inside Out, Windows XP Inside Out, and runs too blogs.
Read them. Learn what Vista is really like.

I would be happy to go one on one with any one from Redmond MSFT and point
out what isn't being fixed in RC1 today."

CH

"Chad Harris" <> wrote in message
news:...
>
> "MSFT has deployed an attitude of utmost contempt for the public and the
> CPP by restricting information from them and defeating any semblance of a
> learning curve. Connect blocks access to bug reports by the public.

Your opening paragraph is aggressive and accusatory. Not a good way to
begin a feedback form if you want to have your feedback taken seriously.

> This is done with the intention of preventing their customsers from
> contexting bugs, seeing bugs, realizing what won't be fixed or what is
> deffered to "fix" and never will be by Blackcomb Vienna.

Now you profess to have knowledge of the inner workings and decision making
process at Microsoft, enough to know what their intentions are and the
purpose behind them. We're going downhill fast!

> MSFT further in the most quintissential anti-education posture possible in
> contrast to the Gates Foundation stomps all over the learning curves of
> their customers with respect to Vista by

Oh please. Now you're just laying it on thick. Fluff and bluster so far.

> 1) denying them access to Beta chats where some real info is exchanged
> that only approximately 100-200 people out of 27000 Beta testors in
> different groups including but not restricted to TBT and TAP and those
> added in the last few months. Instead of sensibly providing a central link
> for all the chats on the MSFT web site, say
> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista and the Technet site and MSDN they
> hide the chats. Selected MSDN bloggers put selected chats on line, and
> afik the chats aren't under any NDA. How inconsiderate to hide them from
> the public.

Have you ever gone to a meeting attended by 200 people? How much actual
progress gets made in such a meeting? Ok now lets put 10 MS reps in a room
with 27,000 people and see how much meaningful dialog occurs. If all 27,000
people we given 1 minute to speak (forget MS speaking) it would take 11
weeks (8hrs a day, 5 days a week for 11 weeks) for everyone to finish. How
can this be productive?

> How anti learning for a company who considers its employees elete
> applicants with creme de la crem academic pedigress although this is
> hardly the case.

More freakishness from you, validating the insanity of your rantings.

> 2) MSFT also denies their public customer base who put food on their
> tables and toys in their homes access to multiple *Beta Live Meetings on
> Vista (I'm not talking about the infrequent and question limited Technet
> LMs) during the week and refuses to archive them. They have no more than
> 200 and often less attendies. There are 27000 plus TBTs.

Get real. I dare you to walk into the center of a basketball stadium of
27,000 people and try to get something meaningful out of the attendees.

> 3) MSFT also restricts their Beta newsgroups from the public and there is
> no reason to do so. The public Vista grousp are considerably less in
> number, and the information is considerably less in quality with even more
> newbie questions than on the TBT groups.

It is restricted precisely because of people like you, who seem to offer
nothing more than a lot of knee-jerking and outlandish conspiracy theories.
Meanwhile, real work needs to get done by real people, working on real
problems, and needing feedback from objective people who understand the
processes involved. For example, our government would cease to exist and
anarchy would ensue if every American were allowed free access to come and
go and voice their opinion in our courtrooms, senate and house of
representatives at will. There has to be some restrictions in place, or no
real work would ever get done.

> MSFT's only regard for the public is in the context of a file and settings
> transfer manger--to transfer as much bandwidth of cash into the MSFT
> pockets from the public as possible.

More freak hyperbole. Rant on, but nobody is listening to you anymore.

> MSFT has Community Liasons assigned to key Vista teams who have not lifted
> a finger to publish comprehensive information on the MSFT public websites.
> Excellent information is available on MSDN and Technet blogs, but they are
> known and used by a limited number and subset of people.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! "I am complaining because you put the information out there
but people don't go there and read it!" You know the old saying, "you can
lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink?" Well, welcome to
reality buddy. Pardon the world for not spoon-feeding you.

> No comprehensive and decent level information is available on SFC and Win
> RE in Vista on any MSFT site. What is there is insulting to anyone with an
> interest in Windows who is provides consistent considerable help for your
> customers on your newsgroups.

Again, wiping away the insanity and hyperbole, is this really the root of
your complaint? You want more information on a pre-release system and are
mad because you haven't got it?

You sir, are a sad, strange little man.

> Correct this eggregious lack of information immediately.

Translation: Stop working on the code, put a hold on all release dates, and
feed me information so I can then complain that you are spending way too
much time documenting instead of actually releasing something.

> 1) Make the Beta chats public and archive them in a central place and
> showcase this on your community websites and Vista sites.

Translation: Turn beta chats into disorganized chaos where 27,000 people
can spam questions that a dozen MS employees could never hope to answer,
thereby ensuring that no questions get answered and nothing is accomplished.

> 2) Make the Beta Live Meetings all public and archive them in a central
> place and showcase this on your community websites and Vista sites.

Same as #1

> 3) Stop hiding bug access for Beta testers. TBTs have offered to check
> them for adults who are interested on your public newsgroups. That arms
> length approach would be pathetic.

With whiners and complainers like you, I can't say I blame them for making
the bugs private. Morons latch onto little things like "when I hit F1 at
this dialog it pauses for 1 second before loading help" and complain when
their bug gets marked as "duh you're stupid" -- err, I mean "Wont Fix".
People actually think Vista should be held back until every single bug any
schmoe ever submitted is corrected. Sorry, but that ain't going to happen.

> 4) The public doesn't have any feedback as to efforts they expend to
> give you bug information. MSFT doesn't give a damn what the unwashed
> public thinks. Your arrogance that cost you nearly 250 million and growing
> fines after Brad Smith's litigation with the European Union (make sure
> Brad gets a big Christmas bonus) is systemically branded on this policy
> that is going to generate untrained Vista users in your public customer
> base.
> Get the Community writers on the Vista teams off their butts and have
> them post comprehensive articles on the MSFT Vista sites, not some
> pathetic cheerleading manual like the "Product Guide." You are about 50
> days from an October 25 Internal RTM which is shoving this half baked
> unfinished

More incomprehensible rantings which neither justify your complaints,
validate any point, or have any reasonable relation to any of your other
rantings. Articles take time to write, information takes time to
disseminate, and you can't document something that's still being developed
or whiners like you will complain it's inaccurate.

[snip duplicate rantings]

> Vista is not to use the MSFT synchophant mantra in the category that it
> "like so rocks." That's crap.

Translation: I have no idea what "synchophant" means but it sounds cool and
so I had to use it in a sentence.
The word is however, similar to "sycophant" which is defined as a toadie or
parasite, or a person who seeks favor by flattering people of higher
station.

> A more realistic take is the article by Ed Bott who says if you stick to
> your current time table it will be horrendous. Ed Bott is the author of
> MSFT Press Windows Vista Inside Out, Windows XP Inside Out, and runs too
> blogs. Read them. Learn what Vista is really like.

After all these paragraphs of your ranting, now you're telling MS to get
real? I think you're the one that needs to get real, my friend.

> I would be happy to go one on one with any one from Redmond MSFT and point
> out what isn't being fixed in RC1 today."

You and Kevin Panzke think you have such great "above and beyond" knowledge
that Microsoft should just fly you to Redmond to be consultants. In
reality, you just need to get out of your parent's basement once in a while.

Robert

P.S. Just for fun, and because I find it rather amusing that whiners and
moaners typically use big words they can't spell:
deffered
quintissential
testors
elete
pedigress
attendies
Liasons
eggregious
synchophant

You can be sure no one at MS even read that whole thing (I didn't either).
You should keep something like that to one paragraph, two at the very most
if you want it read and/or taken seriously.

-Mike

"Robert Simpson" <> wrote in message
news:...
> "Chad Harris" <> wrote in message
> news:...
>>
>> "MSFT has deployed an attitude of utmost contempt for the public and the
>> CPP by restricting information from them and defeating any semblance of a
>> learning curve. Connect blocks access to bug reports by the public.
>
> Your opening paragraph is aggressive and accusatory. Not a good way to
> begin a feedback form if you want to have your feedback taken seriously.
>
>> This is done with the intention of preventing their customsers from
>> contexting bugs, seeing bugs, realizing what won't be fixed or what is
>> deffered to "fix" and never will be by Blackcomb Vienna.
>
> Now you profess to have knowledge of the inner workings and decision
> making process at Microsoft, enough to know what their intentions are and
> the purpose behind them. We're going downhill fast!
>
>> MSFT further in the most quintissential anti-education posture possible
>> in contrast to the Gates Foundation stomps all over the learning curves
>> of their customers with respect to Vista by
>
> Oh please. Now you're just laying it on thick. Fluff and bluster so far.
>
>> 1) denying them access to Beta chats where some real info is exchanged
>> that only approximately 100-200 people out of 27000 Beta testors in
>> different groups including but not restricted to TBT and TAP and those
>> added in the last few months. Instead of sensibly providing a central
>> link for all the chats on the MSFT web site, say
>> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista and the Technet site and MSDN they
>> hide the chats. Selected MSDN bloggers put selected chats on line, and
>> afik the chats aren't under any NDA. How inconsiderate to hide them from
>> the public.
>
> Have you ever gone to a meeting attended by 200 people? How much actual
> progress gets made in such a meeting? Ok now lets put 10 MS reps in a
> room with 27,000 people and see how much meaningful dialog occurs. If all
> 27,000 people we given 1 minute to speak (forget MS speaking) it would
> take 11 weeks (8hrs a day, 5 days a week for 11 weeks) for everyone to
> finish. How can this be productive?
>
>> How anti learning for a company who considers its employees elete
>> applicants with creme de la crem academic pedigress although this is
>> hardly the case.
>
> More freakishness from you, validating the insanity of your rantings.
>
>> 2) MSFT also denies their public customer base who put food on their
>> tables and toys in their homes access to multiple *Beta Live Meetings on
>> Vista (I'm not talking about the infrequent and question limited Technet
>> LMs) during the week and refuses to archive them. They have no more than
>> 200 and often less attendies. There are 27000 plus TBTs.
>
> Get real. I dare you to walk into the center of a basketball stadium of
> 27,000 people and try to get something meaningful out of the attendees.
>
>> 3) MSFT also restricts their Beta newsgroups from the public and there is
>> no reason to do so. The public Vista grousp are considerably less in
>> number, and the information is considerably less in quality with even
>> more newbie questions than on the TBT groups.
>
> It is restricted precisely because of people like you, who seem to offer
> nothing more than a lot of knee-jerking and outlandish conspiracy
> theories. Meanwhile, real work needs to get done by real people, working
> on real problems, and needing feedback from objective people who
> understand the processes involved. For example, our government would
> cease to exist and anarchy would ensue if every American were allowed free
> access to come and go and voice their opinion in our courtrooms, senate
> and house of representatives at will. There has to be some restrictions
> in place, or no real work would ever get done.
>
>> MSFT's only regard for the public is in the context of a file and
>> settings transfer manger--to transfer as much bandwidth of cash into the
>> MSFT pockets from the public as possible.
>
> More freak hyperbole. Rant on, but nobody is listening to you anymore.
>
>> MSFT has Community Liasons assigned to key Vista teams who have not
>> lifted a finger to publish comprehensive information on the MSFT public
>> websites. Excellent information is available on MSDN and Technet blogs,
>> but they are known and used by a limited number and subset of people.
>
> HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! "I am complaining because you put the information out
> there but people don't go there and read it!" You know the old saying,
> "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink?" Well,
> welcome to reality buddy. Pardon the world for not spoon-feeding you.
>
>> No comprehensive and decent level information is available on SFC and Win
>> RE in Vista on any MSFT site. What is there is insulting to anyone with
>> an interest in Windows who is provides consistent considerable help for
>> your customers on your newsgroups.
>
> Again, wiping away the insanity and hyperbole, is this really the root of
> your complaint? You want more information on a pre-release system and are
> mad because you haven't got it?
>
> You sir, are a sad, strange little man.
>
>> Correct this eggregious lack of information immediately.
>
> Translation: Stop working on the code, put a hold on all release dates,
> and feed me information so I can then complain that you are spending way
> too much time documenting instead of actually releasing something.
>
>> 1) Make the Beta chats public and archive them in a central place and
>> showcase this on your community websites and Vista sites.
>
> Translation: Turn beta chats into disorganized chaos where 27,000 people
> can spam questions that a dozen MS employees could never hope to answer,
> thereby ensuring that no questions get answered and nothing is
> accomplished.
>
>> 2) Make the Beta Live Meetings all public and archive them in a
>> central place and showcase this on your community websites and Vista
>> sites.
>
> Same as #1
>
>> 3) Stop hiding bug access for Beta testers. TBTs have offered to check
>> them for adults who are interested on your public newsgroups. That arms
>> length approach would be pathetic.
>
> With whiners and complainers like you, I can't say I blame them for making
> the bugs private. Morons latch onto little things like "when I hit F1 at
> this dialog it pauses for 1 second before loading help" and complain when
> their bug gets marked as "duh you're stupid" -- err, I mean "Wont Fix".
> People actually think Vista should be held back until every single bug any
> schmoe ever submitted is corrected. Sorry, but that ain't going to
> happen.
>
>> 4) The public doesn't have any feedback as to efforts they expend to
>> give you bug information. MSFT doesn't give a damn what the unwashed
>> public thinks. Your arrogance that cost you nearly 250 million and
>> growing fines after Brad Smith's litigation with the European Union (make
>> sure Brad gets a big Christmas bonus) is systemically branded on this
>> policy that is going to generate untrained Vista users in your public
>> customer base.
>> Get the Community writers on the Vista teams off their butts and have
>> them post comprehensive articles on the MSFT Vista sites, not some
>> pathetic cheerleading manual like the "Product Guide." You are about 50
>> days from an October 25 Internal RTM which is shoving this half baked
>> unfinished
>
> More incomprehensible rantings which neither justify your complaints,
> validate any point, or have any reasonable relation to any of your other
> rantings. Articles take time to write, information takes time to
> disseminate, and you can't document something that's still being developed
> or whiners like you will complain it's inaccurate.
>
> [snip duplicate rantings]
>
>> Vista is not to use the MSFT synchophant mantra in the category that it
>> "like so rocks." That's crap.
>
> Translation: I have no idea what "synchophant" means but it sounds cool
> and so I had to use it in a sentence.
> The word is however, similar to "sycophant" which is defined as a toadie
> or parasite, or a person who seeks favor by flattering people of higher
> station.
>
>> A more realistic take is the article by Ed Bott who says if you stick to
>> your current time table it will be horrendous. Ed Bott is the author of
>> MSFT Press Windows Vista Inside Out, Windows XP Inside Out, and runs too
>> blogs. Read them. Learn what Vista is really like.
>
> After all these paragraphs of your ranting, now you're telling MS to get
> real? I think you're the one that needs to get real, my friend.
>
>> I would be happy to go one on one with any one from Redmond MSFT and
>> point out what isn't being fixed in RC1 today."
>
> You and Kevin Panzke think you have such great "above and beyond"
> knowledge that Microsoft should just fly you to Redmond to be consultants.
> In reality, you just need to get out of your parent's basement once in a
> while.
>
> Robert
>
> P.S. Just for fun, and because I find it rather amusing that whiners and
> moaners typically use big words they can't spell:
> deffered
> quintissential
> testors
> elete
> pedigress
> attendies
> Liasons
> eggregious
> synchophant
>
>

Oh he does that all the time.
Most people (me) just ignore it and move on. <s>
Paula

"**__Mike__**" <**__Mike__**@NoSpam.com> wrote in message
news:2P6dnVSX-...
> You can be sure no one at MS even read that whole thing (I didn't either).
> You should keep something like that to one paragraph, two at the very most
> if you want it read and/or taken seriously.
>
> -Mike
>
> "Robert Simpson" <> wrote in message
> news:...
>> "Chad Harris" <> wrote in message
>> news:...
>>>
>>> "MSFT has deployed an attitude of utmost contempt for the public and the
>>> CPP by restricting information from them and defeating any semblance of
>>> a learning curve. Connect blocks access to bug reports by the public.
>>
>> Your opening paragraph is aggressive and accusatory. Not a good way to
>> begin a feedback form if you want to have your feedback taken seriously.
>>
>>> This is done with the intention of preventing their customsers from
>>> contexting bugs, seeing bugs, realizing what won't be fixed or what is
>>> deffered to "fix" and never will be by Blackcomb Vienna.
>>
>> Now you profess to have knowledge of the inner workings and decision
>> making process at Microsoft, enough to know what their intentions are and
>> the purpose behind them. We're going downhill fast!
>>
>>> MSFT further in the most quintissential anti-education posture possible
>>> in contrast to the Gates Foundation stomps all over the learning curves
>>> of their customers with respect to Vista by
>>
>> Oh please. Now you're just laying it on thick. Fluff and bluster so
>> far.
>>
>>> 1) denying them access to Beta chats where some real info is exchanged
>>> that only approximately 100-200 people out of 27000 Beta testors in
>>> different groups including but not restricted to TBT and TAP and those
>>> added in the last few months. Instead of sensibly providing a central
>>> link for all the chats on the MSFT web site, say
>>> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista and the Technet site and MSDN they
>>> hide the chats. Selected MSDN bloggers put selected chats on line, and
>>> afik the chats aren't under any NDA. How inconsiderate to hide them from
>>> the public.
>>
>> Have you ever gone to a meeting attended by 200 people? How much actual
>> progress gets made in such a meeting? Ok now lets put 10 MS reps in a
>> room with 27,000 people and see how much meaningful dialog occurs. If
>> all 27,000 people we given 1 minute to speak (forget MS speaking) it
>> would take 11 weeks (8hrs a day, 5 days a week for 11 weeks) for everyone
>> to finish. How can this be productive?
>>
>>> How anti learning for a company who considers its employees elete
>>> applicants with creme de la crem academic pedigress although this is
>>> hardly the case.
>>
>> More freakishness from you, validating the insanity of your rantings.
>>
>>> 2) MSFT also denies their public customer base who put food on their
>>> tables and toys in their homes access to multiple *Beta Live Meetings on
>>> Vista (I'm not talking about the infrequent and question limited Technet
>>> LMs) during the week and refuses to archive them. They have no more than
>>> 200 and often less attendies. There are 27000 plus TBTs.
>>
>> Get real. I dare you to walk into the center of a basketball stadium of
>> 27,000 people and try to get something meaningful out of the attendees.
>>
>>> 3) MSFT also restricts their Beta newsgroups from the public and there
>>> is no reason to do so. The public Vista grousp are considerably less in
>>> number, and the information is considerably less in quality with even
>>> more newbie questions than on the TBT groups.
>>
>> It is restricted precisely because of people like you, who seem to offer
>> nothing more than a lot of knee-jerking and outlandish conspiracy
>> theories. Meanwhile, real work needs to get done by real people, working
>> on real problems, and needing feedback from objective people who
>> understand the processes involved. For example, our government would
>> cease to exist and anarchy would ensue if every American were allowed
>> free access to come and go and voice their opinion in our courtrooms,
>> senate and house of representatives at will. There has to be some
>> restrictions in place, or no real work would ever get done.
>>
>>> MSFT's only regard for the public is in the context of a file and
>>> settings transfer manger--to transfer as much bandwidth of cash into the
>>> MSFT pockets from the public as possible.
>>
>> More freak hyperbole. Rant on, but nobody is listening to you anymore.
>>
>>> MSFT has Community Liasons assigned to key Vista teams who have not
>>> lifted a finger to publish comprehensive information on the MSFT public
>>> websites. Excellent information is available on MSDN and Technet blogs,
>>> but they are known and used by a limited number and subset of people.
>>
>> HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! "I am complaining because you put the information out
>> there but people don't go there and read it!" You know the old saying,
>> "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink?" Well,
>> welcome to reality buddy. Pardon the world for not spoon-feeding you.
>>
>>> No comprehensive and decent level information is available on SFC and
>>> Win RE in Vista on any MSFT site. What is there is insulting to anyone
>>> with an interest in Windows who is provides consistent considerable help
>>> for your customers on your newsgroups.
>>
>> Again, wiping away the insanity and hyperbole, is this really the root of
>> your complaint? You want more information on a pre-release system and
>> are mad because you haven't got it?
>>
>> You sir, are a sad, strange little man.
>>
>>> Correct this eggregious lack of information immediately.
>>
>> Translation: Stop working on the code, put a hold on all release dates,
>> and feed me information so I can then complain that you are spending way
>> too much time documenting instead of actually releasing something.
>>
>>> 1) Make the Beta chats public and archive them in a central place and
>>> showcase this on your community websites and Vista sites.
>>
>> Translation: Turn beta chats into disorganized chaos where 27,000 people
>> can spam questions that a dozen MS employees could never hope to answer,
>> thereby ensuring that no questions get answered and nothing is
>> accomplished.
>>
>>> 2) Make the Beta Live Meetings all public and archive them in a
>>> central place and showcase this on your community websites and Vista
>>> sites.
>>
>> Same as #1
>>
>>> 3) Stop hiding bug access for Beta testers. TBTs have offered to
>>> check them for adults who are interested on your public newsgroups. That
>>> arms length approach would be pathetic.
>>
>> With whiners and complainers like you, I can't say I blame them for
>> making the bugs private. Morons latch onto little things like "when I
>> hit F1 at this dialog it pauses for 1 second before loading help" and
>> complain when their bug gets marked as "duh you're stupid" -- err, I mean
>> "Wont Fix". People actually think Vista should be held back until every
>> single bug any schmoe ever submitted is corrected. Sorry, but that ain't
>> going to happen.
>>
>>> 4) The public doesn't have any feedback as to efforts they expend to
>>> give you bug information. MSFT doesn't give a damn what the unwashed
>>> public thinks. Your arrogance that cost you nearly 250 million and
>>> growing fines after Brad Smith's litigation with the European Union
>>> (make sure Brad gets a big Christmas bonus) is systemically branded on
>>> this policy that is going to generate untrained Vista users in your
>>> public customer base.
>>> Get the Community writers on the Vista teams off their butts and have
>>> them post comprehensive articles on the MSFT Vista sites, not some
>>> pathetic cheerleading manual like the "Product Guide." You are about 50
>>> days from an October 25 Internal RTM which is shoving this half baked
>>> unfinished
>>
>> More incomprehensible rantings which neither justify your complaints,
>> validate any point, or have any reasonable relation to any of your other
>> rantings. Articles take time to write, information takes time to
>> disseminate, and you can't document something that's still being
>> developed or whiners like you will complain it's inaccurate.
>>
>> [snip duplicate rantings]
>>
>>> Vista is not to use the MSFT synchophant mantra in the category that it
>>> "like so rocks." That's crap.
>>
>> Translation: I have no idea what "synchophant" means but it sounds cool
>> and so I had to use it in a sentence.
>> The word is however, similar to "sycophant" which is defined as a toadie
>> or parasite, or a person who seeks favor by flattering people of higher
>> station.
>>
>>> A more realistic take is the article by Ed Bott who says if you stick to
>>> your current time table it will be horrendous. Ed Bott is the author of
>>> MSFT Press Windows Vista Inside Out, Windows XP Inside Out, and runs too
>>> blogs. Read them. Learn what Vista is really like.
>>
>> After all these paragraphs of your ranting, now you're telling MS to get
>> real? I think you're the one that needs to get real, my friend.
>>
>>> I would be happy to go one on one with any one from Redmond MSFT and
>>> point out what isn't being fixed in RC1 today."
>>
>> You and Kevin Panzke think you have such great "above and beyond"
>> knowledge that Microsoft should just fly you to Redmond to be
>> consultants. In reality, you just need to get out of your parent's
>> basement once in a while.
>>
>> Robert
>>
>> P.S. Just for fun, and because I find it rather amusing that whiners and
>> moaners typically use big words they can't spell:
>> deffered
>> quintissential
>> testors
>> elete
>> pedigress
>> attendies
>> Liasons
>> eggregious
>> synchophant
>>
>>
>

hahahaha very well said Robert. As for Chad, if you are really upset about
this, please send feedback, these forums are not for your rants

"Robert Simpson" wrote:

> "Chad Harris" <> wrote in message
> news:...
> >
> > "MSFT has deployed an attitude of utmost contempt for the public and the
> > CPP by restricting information from them and defeating any semblance of a
> > learning curve. Connect blocks access to bug reports by the public.
>
> Your opening paragraph is aggressive and accusatory. Not a good way to
> begin a feedback form if you want to have your feedback taken seriously.
>
> > This is done with the intention of preventing their customsers from
> > contexting bugs, seeing bugs, realizing what won't be fixed or what is
> > deffered to "fix" and never will be by Blackcomb Vienna.
>
> Now you profess to have knowledge of the inner workings and decision making
> process at Microsoft, enough to know what their intentions are and the
> purpose behind them. We're going downhill fast!
>
> > MSFT further in the most quintissential anti-education posture possible in
> > contrast to the Gates Foundation stomps all over the learning curves of
> > their customers with respect to Vista by
>
> Oh please. Now you're just laying it on thick. Fluff and bluster so far.
>
> > 1) denying them access to Beta chats where some real info is exchanged
> > that only approximately 100-200 people out of 27000 Beta testors in
> > different groups including but not restricted to TBT and TAP and those
> > added in the last few months. Instead of sensibly providing a central link
> > for all the chats on the MSFT web site, say
> > http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista and the Technet site and MSDN they
> > hide the chats. Selected MSDN bloggers put selected chats on line, and
> > afik the chats aren't under any NDA. How inconsiderate to hide them from
> > the public.
>
> Have you ever gone to a meeting attended by 200 people? How much actual
> progress gets made in such a meeting? Ok now lets put 10 MS reps in a room
> with 27,000 people and see how much meaningful dialog occurs. If all 27,000
> people we given 1 minute to speak (forget MS speaking) it would take 11
> weeks (8hrs a day, 5 days a week for 11 weeks) for everyone to finish. How
> can this be productive?
>
> > How anti learning for a company who considers its employees elete
> > applicants with creme de la crem academic pedigress although this is
> > hardly the case.
>
> More freakishness from you, validating the insanity of your rantings.
>
> > 2) MSFT also denies their public customer base who put food on their
> > tables and toys in their homes access to multiple *Beta Live Meetings on
> > Vista (I'm not talking about the infrequent and question limited Technet
> > LMs) during the week and refuses to archive them. They have no more than
> > 200 and often less attendies. There are 27000 plus TBTs.
>
> Get real. I dare you to walk into the center of a basketball stadium of
> 27,000 people and try to get something meaningful out of the attendees.
>
> > 3) MSFT also restricts their Beta newsgroups from the public and there is
> > no reason to do so. The public Vista grousp are considerably less in
> > number, and the information is considerably less in quality with even more
> > newbie questions than on the TBT groups.
>
> It is restricted precisely because of people like you, who seem to offer
> nothing more than a lot of knee-jerking and outlandish conspiracy theories.
> Meanwhile, real work needs to get done by real people, working on real
> problems, and needing feedback from objective people who understand the
> processes involved. For example, our government would cease to exist and
> anarchy would ensue if every American were allowed free access to come and
> go and voice their opinion in our courtrooms, senate and house of
> representatives at will. There has to be some restrictions in place, or no
> real work would ever get done.
>
> > MSFT's only regard for the public is in the context of a file and settings
> > transfer manger--to transfer as much bandwidth of cash into the MSFT
> > pockets from the public as possible.
>
> More freak hyperbole. Rant on, but nobody is listening to you anymore.
>
> > MSFT has Community Liasons assigned to key Vista teams who have not lifted
> > a finger to publish comprehensive information on the MSFT public websites.
> > Excellent information is available on MSDN and Technet blogs, but they are
> > known and used by a limited number and subset of people.
>
> HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! "I am complaining because you put the information out there
> but people don't go there and read it!" You know the old saying, "you can
> lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink?" Well, welcome to
> reality buddy. Pardon the world for not spoon-feeding you.
>
> > No comprehensive and decent level information is available on SFC and Win
> > RE in Vista on any MSFT site. What is there is insulting to anyone with an
> > interest in Windows who is provides consistent considerable help for your
> > customers on your newsgroups.
>
> Again, wiping away the insanity and hyperbole, is this really the root of
> your complaint? You want more information on a pre-release system and are
> mad because you haven't got it?
>
> You sir, are a sad, strange little man.
>
> > Correct this eggregious lack of information immediately.
>
> Translation: Stop working on the code, put a hold on all release dates, and
> feed me information so I can then complain that you are spending way too
> much time documenting instead of actually releasing something.
>
> > 1) Make the Beta chats public and archive them in a central place and
> > showcase this on your community websites and Vista sites.
>
> Translation: Turn beta chats into disorganized chaos where 27,000 people
> can spam questions that a dozen MS employees could never hope to answer,
> thereby ensuring that no questions get answered and nothing is accomplished.
>
> > 2) Make the Beta Live Meetings all public and archive them in a central
> > place and showcase this on your community websites and Vista sites.
>
> Same as #1
>
> > 3) Stop hiding bug access for Beta testers. TBTs have offered to check
> > them for adults who are interested on your public newsgroups. That arms
> > length approach would be pathetic.
>
> With whiners and complainers like you, I can't say I blame them for making
> the bugs private. Morons latch onto little things like "when I hit F1 at
> this dialog it pauses for 1 second before loading help" and complain when
> their bug gets marked as "duh you're stupid" -- err, I mean "Wont Fix".
> People actually think Vista should be held back until every single bug any
> schmoe ever submitted is corrected. Sorry, but that ain't going to happen.
>
> > 4) The public doesn't have any feedback as to efforts they expend to
> > give you bug information. MSFT doesn't give a damn what the unwashed
> > public thinks. Your arrogance that cost you nearly 250 million and growing
> > fines after Brad Smith's litigation with the European Union (make sure
> > Brad gets a big Christmas bonus) is systemically branded on this policy
> > that is going to generate untrained Vista users in your public customer
> > base.
> > Get the Community writers on the Vista teams off their butts and have
> > them post comprehensive articles on the MSFT Vista sites, not some
> > pathetic cheerleading manual like the "Product Guide." You are about 50
> > days from an October 25 Internal RTM which is shoving this half baked
> > unfinished
>
> More incomprehensible rantings which neither justify your complaints,
> validate any point, or have any reasonable relation to any of your other
> rantings. Articles take time to write, information takes time to
> disseminate, and you can't document something that's still being developed
> or whiners like you will complain it's inaccurate.
>
> [snip duplicate rantings]
>
> > Vista is not to use the MSFT synchophant mantra in the category that it
> > "like so rocks." That's crap.
>
> Translation: I have no idea what "synchophant" means but it sounds cool and
> so I had to use it in a sentence.
> The word is however, similar to "sycophant" which is defined as a toadie or
> parasite, or a person who seeks favor by flattering people of higher
> station.
>
> > A more realistic take is the article by Ed Bott who says if you stick to
> > your current time table it will be horrendous. Ed Bott is the author of
> > MSFT Press Windows Vista Inside Out, Windows XP Inside Out, and runs too
> > blogs. Read them. Learn what Vista is really like.
>
> After all these paragraphs of your ranting, now you're telling MS to get
> real? I think you're the one that needs to get real, my friend.
>
> > I would be happy to go one on one with any one from Redmond MSFT and point
> > out what isn't being fixed in RC1 today."
>
> You and Kevin Panzke think you have such great "above and beyond" knowledge
> that Microsoft should just fly you to Redmond to be consultants. In
> reality, you just need to get out of your parent's basement once in a while.
>
> Robert
>
> P.S. Just for fun, and because I find it rather amusing that whiners and
> moaners typically use big words they can't spell:
> deffered
> quintissential
> testors
> elete
> pedigress
> attendies
> Liasons
> eggregious
> synchophant
>
>
>

You can't be sure of any of that. What you do and what other people do
aren't always your self absorbed answer.

The points are simple

1) Access to bugs
2) Access to LM
3) Access to Beta Chats
4) Archiving of 2 and 3

CH


"**__Mike__**" <**__Mike__**@NoSpam.com> wrote in message
news:2P6dnVSX-...
> You can be sure no one at MS even read that whole thing (I didn't either).
> You should keep something like that to one paragraph, two at the very most
> if you want it read and/or taken seriously.
>
> -Mike
>
> "Robert Simpson" <> wrote in message
> news:...
>> "Chad Harris" <> wrote in message
>> news:...
>>>
>>> "MSFT has deployed an attitude of utmost contempt for the public and the
>>> CPP by restricting information from them and defeating any semblance of
>>> a learning curve. Connect blocks access to bug reports by the public.
>>
>> Your opening paragraph is aggressive and accusatory. Not a good way to
>> begin a feedback form if you want to have your feedback taken seriously.
>>
>>> This is done with the intention of preventing their customsers from
>>> contexting bugs, seeing bugs, realizing what won't be fixed or what is
>>> deffered to "fix" and never will be by Blackcomb Vienna.
>>
>> Now you profess to have knowledge of the inner workings and decision
>> making process at Microsoft, enough to know what their intentions are and
>> the purpose behind them. We're going downhill fast!
>>
>>> MSFT further in the most quintissential anti-education posture possible
>>> in contrast to the Gates Foundation stomps all over the learning curves
>>> of their customers with respect to Vista by
>>
>> Oh please. Now you're just laying it on thick. Fluff and bluster so
>> far.
>>
>>> 1) denying them access to Beta chats where some real info is exchanged
>>> that only approximately 100-200 people out of 27000 Beta testors in
>>> different groups including but not restricted to TBT and TAP and those
>>> added in the last few months. Instead of sensibly providing a central
>>> link for all the chats on the MSFT web site, say
>>> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista and the Technet site and MSDN they
>>> hide the chats. Selected MSDN bloggers put selected chats on line, and
>>> afik the chats aren't under any NDA. How inconsiderate to hide them from
>>> the public.
>>
>> Have you ever gone to a meeting attended by 200 people? How much actual
>> progress gets made in such a meeting? Ok now lets put 10 MS reps in a
>> room with 27,000 people and see how much meaningful dialog occurs. If
>> all 27,000 people we given 1 minute to speak (forget MS speaking) it
>> would take 11 weeks (8hrs a day, 5 days a week for 11 weeks) for everyone
>> to finish. How can this be productive?
>>
>>> How anti learning for a company who considers its employees elete
>>> applicants with creme de la crem academic pedigress although this is
>>> hardly the case.
>>
>> More freakishness from you, validating the insanity of your rantings.
>>
>>> 2) MSFT also denies their public customer base who put food on their
>>> tables and toys in their homes access to multiple *Beta Live Meetings on
>>> Vista (I'm not talking about the infrequent and question limited Technet
>>> LMs) during the week and refuses to archive them. They have no more than
>>> 200 and often less attendies. There are 27000 plus TBTs.
>>
>> Get real. I dare you to walk into the center of a basketball stadium of
>> 27,000 people and try to get something meaningful out of the attendees.
>>
>>> 3) MSFT also restricts their Beta newsgroups from the public and there
>>> is no reason to do so. The public Vista grousp are considerably less in
>>> number, and the information is considerably less in quality with even
>>> more newbie questions than on the TBT groups.
>>
>> It is restricted precisely because of people like you, who seem to offer
>> nothing more than a lot of knee-jerking and outlandish conspiracy
>> theories. Meanwhile, real work needs to get done by real people, working
>> on real problems, and needing feedback from objective people who
>> understand the processes involved. For example, our government would
>> cease to exist and anarchy would ensue if every American were allowed
>> free access to come and go and voice their opinion in our courtrooms,
>> senate and house of representatives at will. There has to be some
>> restrictions in place, or no real work would ever get done.
>>
>>> MSFT's only regard for the public is in the context of a file and
>>> settings transfer manger--to transfer as much bandwidth of cash into the
>>> MSFT pockets from the public as possible.
>>
>> More freak hyperbole. Rant on, but nobody is listening to you anymore.
>>
>>> MSFT has Community Liasons assigned to key Vista teams who have not
>>> lifted a finger to publish comprehensive information on the MSFT public
>>> websites. Excellent information is available on MSDN and Technet blogs,
>>> but they are known and used by a limited number and subset of people.
>>
>> HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! "I am complaining because you put the information out
>> there but people don't go there and read it!" You know the old saying,
>> "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink?" Well,
>> welcome to reality buddy. Pardon the world for not spoon-feeding you.
>>
>>> No comprehensive and decent level information is available on SFC and
>>> Win RE in Vista on any MSFT site. What is there is insulting to anyone
>>> with an interest in Windows who is provides consistent considerable help
>>> for your customers on your newsgroups.
>>
>> Again, wiping away the insanity and hyperbole, is this really the root of
>> your complaint? You want more information on a pre-release system and
>> are mad because you haven't got it?
>>
>> You sir, are a sad, strange little man.
>>
>>> Correct this eggregious lack of information immediately.
>>
>> Translation: Stop working on the code, put a hold on all release dates,
>> and feed me information so I can then complain that you are spending way
>> too much time documenting instead of actually releasing something.
>>
>>> 1) Make the Beta chats public and archive them in a central place and
>>> showcase this on your community websites and Vista sites.
>>
>> Translation: Turn beta chats into disorganized chaos where 27,000 people
>> can spam questions that a dozen MS employees could never hope to answer,
>> thereby ensuring that no questions get answered and nothing is
>> accomplished.
>>
>>> 2) Make the Beta Live Meetings all public and archive them in a
>>> central place and showcase this on your community websites and Vista
>>> sites.
>>
>> Same as #1
>>
>>> 3) Stop hiding bug access for Beta testers. TBTs have offered to
>>> check them for adults who are interested on your public newsgroups. That
>>> arms length approach would be pathetic.
>>
>> With whiners and complainers like you, I can't say I blame them for
>> making the bugs private. Morons latch onto little things like "when I
>> hit F1 at this dialog it pauses for 1 second before loading help" and
>> complain when their bug gets marked as "duh you're stupid" -- err, I mean
>> "Wont Fix". People actually think Vista should be held back until every
>> single bug any schmoe ever submitted is corrected. Sorry, but that ain't
>> going to happen.
>>
>>> 4) The public doesn't have any feedback as to efforts they expend to
>>> give you bug information. MSFT doesn't give a damn what the unwashed
>>> public thinks. Your arrogance that cost you nearly 250 million and
>>> growing fines after Brad Smith's litigation with the European Union
>>> (make sure Brad gets a big Christmas bonus) is systemically branded on
>>> this policy that is going to generate untrained Vista users in your
>>> public customer base.
>>> Get the Community writers on the Vista teams off their butts and have
>>> them post comprehensive articles on the MSFT Vista sites, not some
>>> pathetic cheerleading manual like the "Product Guide." You are about 50
>>> days from an October 25 Internal RTM which is shoving this half baked
>>> unfinished
>>
>> More incomprehensible rantings which neither justify your complaints,
>> validate any point, or have any reasonable relation to any of your other
>> rantings. Articles take time to write, information takes time to
>> disseminate, and you can't document something that's still being
>> developed or whiners like you will complain it's inaccurate.
>>
>> [snip duplicate rantings]
>>
>>> Vista is not to use the MSFT synchophant mantra in the category that it
>>> "like so rocks." That's crap.
>>
>> Translation: I have no idea what "synchophant" means but it sounds cool
>> and so I had to use it in a sentence.
>> The word is however, similar to "sycophant" which is defined as a toadie
>> or parasite, or a person who seeks favor by flattering people of higher
>> station.
>>
>>> A more realistic take is the article by Ed Bott who says if you stick to
>>> your current time table it will be horrendous. Ed Bott is the author of
>>> MSFT Press Windows Vista Inside Out, Windows XP Inside Out, and runs too
>>> blogs. Read them. Learn what Vista is really like.
>>
>> After all these paragraphs of your ranting, now you're telling MS to get
>> real? I think you're the one that needs to get real, my friend.
>>
>>> I would be happy to go one on one with any one from Redmond MSFT and
>>> point out what isn't being fixed in RC1 today."
>>
>> You and Kevin Panzke think you have such great "above and beyond"
>> knowledge that Microsoft should just fly you to Redmond to be
>> consultants. In reality, you just need to get out of your parent's
>> basement once in a while.
>>
>> Robert
>>
>> P.S. Just for fun, and because I find it rather amusing that whiners and
>> moaners typically use big words they can't spell:
>> deffered
>> quintissential
>> testors
>> elete
>> pedigress
>> attendies
>> Liasons
>> eggregious
>> synchophant
>>
>>
>

You didn't. I'm looking for any posts where you've fixed anything for
anyone Paula and can't find any here or in setup. I look forward to them.
Bring 'em.

CH

"Paula" <> wrote in message
news:Oj%...
> Oh he does that all the time.
> Most people (me) just ignore it and move on. <s>
> Paula
>
> "**__Mike__**" <**__Mike__**@NoSpam.com> wrote in message
> news:2P6dnVSX-...
>> You can be sure no one at MS even read that whole thing (I didn't
>> either). You should keep something like that to one paragraph, two at the
>> very most if you want it read and/or taken seriously.
>>
>> -Mike
>>
>> "Robert Simpson" <> wrote in message
>> news:...
>>> "Chad Harris" <> wrote in message
>>> news:...
>>>>
>>>> "MSFT has deployed an attitude of utmost contempt for the public and
>>>> the CPP by restricting information from them and defeating any
>>>> semblance of a learning curve. Connect blocks access to bug reports by
>>>> the public.
>>>
>>> Your opening paragraph is aggressive and accusatory. Not a good way to
>>> begin a feedback form if you want to have your feedback taken seriously.
>>>
>>>> This is done with the intention of preventing their customsers from
>>>> contexting bugs, seeing bugs, realizing what won't be fixed or what is
>>>> deffered to "fix" and never will be by Blackcomb Vienna.
>>>
>>> Now you profess to have knowledge of the inner workings and decision
>>> making process at Microsoft, enough to know what their intentions are
>>> and the purpose behind them. We're going downhill fast!
>>>
>>>> MSFT further in the most quintissential anti-education posture possible
>>>> in contrast to the Gates Foundation stomps all over the learning curves
>>>> of their customers with respect to Vista by
>>>
>>> Oh please. Now you're just laying it on thick. Fluff and bluster so
>>> far.
>>>
>>>> 1) denying them access to Beta chats where some real info is exchanged
>>>> that only approximately 100-200 people out of 27000 Beta testors in
>>>> different groups including but not restricted to TBT and TAP and those
>>>> added in the last few months. Instead of sensibly providing a central
>>>> link for all the chats on the MSFT web site, say
>>>> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista and the Technet site and MSDN
>>>> they hide the chats. Selected MSDN bloggers put selected chats on line,
>>>> and afik the chats aren't under any NDA. How inconsiderate to hide them
>>>> from the public.
>>>
>>> Have you ever gone to a meeting attended by 200 people? How much actual
>>> progress gets made in such a meeting? Ok now lets put 10 MS reps in a
>>> room with 27,000 people and see how much meaningful dialog occurs. If
>>> all 27,000 people we given 1 minute to speak (forget MS speaking) it
>>> would take 11 weeks (8hrs a day, 5 days a week for 11 weeks) for
>>> everyone to finish. How can this be productive?
>>>
>>>> How anti learning for a company who considers its employees elete
>>>> applicants with creme de la crem academic pedigress although this is
>>>> hardly the case.
>>>
>>> More freakishness from you, validating the insanity of your rantings.
>>>
>>>> 2) MSFT also denies their public customer base who put food on their
>>>> tables and toys in their homes access to multiple *Beta Live Meetings
>>>> on Vista (I'm not talking about the infrequent and question limited
>>>> Technet LMs) during the week and refuses to archive them. They have no
>>>> more than 200 and often less attendies. There are 27000 plus TBTs.
>>>
>>> Get real. I dare you to walk into the center of a basketball stadium of
>>> 27,000 people and try to get something meaningful out of the attendees.
>>>
>>>> 3) MSFT also restricts their Beta newsgroups from the public and there
>>>> is no reason to do so. The public Vista grousp are considerably less in
>>>> number, and the information is considerably less in quality with even
>>>> more newbie questions than on the TBT groups.
>>>
>>> It is restricted precisely because of people like you, who seem to offer
>>> nothing more than a lot of knee-jerking and outlandish conspiracy
>>> theories. Meanwhile, real work needs to get done by real people, working
>>> on real problems, and needing feedback from objective people who
>>> understand the processes involved. For example, our government would
>>> cease to exist and anarchy would ensue if every American were allowed
>>> free access to come and go and voice their opinion in our courtrooms,
>>> senate and house of representatives at will. There has to be some
>>> restrictions in place, or no real work would ever get done.
>>>
>>>> MSFT's only regard for the public is in the context of a file and
>>>> settings transfer manger--to transfer as much bandwidth of cash into
>>>> the MSFT pockets from the public as possible.
>>>
>>> More freak hyperbole. Rant on, but nobody is listening to you anymore.
>>>
>>>> MSFT has Community Liasons assigned to key Vista teams who have not
>>>> lifted a finger to publish comprehensive information on the MSFT public
>>>> websites. Excellent information is available on MSDN and Technet blogs,
>>>> but they are known and used by a limited number and subset of people.
>>>
>>> HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! "I am complaining because you put the information out
>>> there but people don't go there and read it!" You know the old saying,
>>> "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink?" Well,
>>> welcome to reality buddy. Pardon the world for not spoon-feeding you.
>>>
>>>> No comprehensive and decent level information is available on SFC and
>>>> Win RE in Vista on any MSFT site. What is there is insulting to anyone
>>>> with an interest in Windows who is provides consistent considerable
>>>> help for your customers on your newsgroups.
>>>
>>> Again, wiping away the insanity and hyperbole, is this really the root
>>> of your complaint? You want more information on a pre-release system
>>> and are mad because you haven't got it?
>>>
>>> You sir, are a sad, strange little man.
>>>
>>>> Correct this eggregious lack of information immediately.
>>>
>>> Translation: Stop working on the code, put a hold on all release dates,
>>> and feed me information so I can then complain that you are spending way
>>> too much time documenting instead of actually releasing something.
>>>
>>>> 1) Make the Beta chats public and archive them in a central place
>>>> and showcase this on your community websites and Vista sites.
>>>
>>> Translation: Turn beta chats into disorganized chaos where 27,000
>>> people can spam questions that a dozen MS employees could never hope to
>>> answer, thereby ensuring that no questions get answered and nothing is
>>> accomplished.
>>>
>>>> 2) Make the Beta Live Meetings all public and archive them in a
>>>> central place and showcase this on your community websites and Vista
>>>> sites.
>>>
>>> Same as #1
>>>
>>>> 3) Stop hiding bug access for Beta testers. TBTs have offered to
>>>> check them for adults who are interested on your public newsgroups.
>>>> That arms length approach would be pathetic.
>>>
>>> With whiners and complainers like you, I can't say I blame them for
>>> making the bugs private. Morons latch onto little things like "when I
>>> hit F1 at this dialog it pauses for 1 second before loading help" and
>>> complain when their bug gets marked as "duh you're stupid" -- err, I
>>> mean "Wont Fix". People actually think Vista should be held back until
>>> every single bug any schmoe ever submitted is corrected. Sorry, but
>>> that ain't going to happen.
>>>
>>>> 4) The public doesn't have any feedback as to efforts they expend to
>>>> give you bug information. MSFT doesn't give a damn what the unwashed
>>>> public thinks. Your arrogance that cost you nearly 250 million and
>>>> growing fines after Brad Smith's litigation with the European Union
>>>> (make sure Brad gets a big Christmas bonus) is systemically branded on
>>>> this policy that is going to generate untrained Vista users in your
>>>> public customer base.
>>>> Get the Community writers on the Vista teams off their butts and
>>>> have them post comprehensive articles on the MSFT Vista sites, not some
>>>> pathetic cheerleading manual like the "Product Guide." You are about 50
>>>> days from an October 25 Internal RTM which is shoving this half baked
>>>> unfinished
>>>
>>> More incomprehensible rantings which neither justify your complaints,
>>> validate any point, or have any reasonable relation to any of your other
>>> rantings. Articles take time to write, information takes time to
>>> disseminate, and you can't document something that's still being
>>> developed or whiners like you will complain it's inaccurate.
>>>
>>> [snip duplicate rantings]
>>>
>>>> Vista is not to use the MSFT synchophant mantra in the category that it
>>>> "like so rocks." That's crap.
>>>
>>> Translation: I have no idea what "synchophant" means but it sounds cool
>>> and so I had to use it in a sentence.
>>> The word is however, similar to "sycophant" which is defined as a toadie
>>> or parasite, or a person who seeks favor by flattering people of higher
>>> station.
>>>
>>>> A more realistic take is the article by Ed Bott who says if you stick
>>>> to your current time table it will be horrendous. Ed Bott is the author
>>>> of MSFT Press Windows Vista Inside Out, Windows XP Inside Out, and runs
>>>> too blogs. Read them. Learn what Vista is really like.
>>>
>>> After all these paragraphs of your ranting, now you're telling MS to get
>>> real? I think you're the one that needs to get real, my friend.
>>>
>>>> I would be happy to go one on one with any one from Redmond MSFT and
>>>> point out what isn't being fixed in RC1 today."
>>>
>>> You and Kevin Panzke think you have such great "above and beyond"
>>> knowledge that Microsoft should just fly you to Redmond to be
>>> consultants. In reality, you just need to get out of your parent's
>>> basement once in a while.
>>>
>>> Robert
>>>
>>> P.S. Just for fun, and because I find it rather amusing that whiners and
>>> moaners typically use big words they can't spell:
>>> deffered
>>> quintissential
>>> testors
>>> elete
>>> pedigress
>>> attendies
>>> Liasons
>>> eggregious
>>> synchophant
>>>
>>>
>>
>
>

They are as much mine as yours and my posts that fix people are get them
setup with Vista are about 500 to one yours Bones. I really look forward to
seeing your pending posts to help people fix their issues.

Bring 'em.

CH


"Bones" <> wrote in message
news:A844853F-E670-4346-894A-...
> hahahaha very well said Robert. As for Chad, if you are really upset about
> this, please send feedback, these forums are not for your rants
>
> "Robert Simpson" wrote:
>
>> "Chad Harris" <> wrote in message
>> news:...
>> >
>> > "MSFT has deployed an attitude of utmost contempt for the public and
>> > the
>> > CPP by restricting information from them and defeating any semblance of
>> > a
>> > learning curve. Connect blocks access to bug reports by the public.
>>
>> Your opening paragraph is aggressive and accusatory. Not a good way to
>> begin a feedback form if you want to have your feedback taken seriously.
>>
>> > This is done with the intention of preventing their customsers from
>> > contexting bugs, seeing bugs, realizing what won't be fixed or what is
>> > deffered to "fix" and never will be by Blackcomb Vienna.
>>
>> Now you profess to have knowledge of the inner workings and decision
>> making
>> process at Microsoft, enough to know what their intentions are and the
>> purpose behind them. We're going downhill fast!
>>
>> > MSFT further in the most quintissential anti-education posture possible
>> > in
>> > contrast to the Gates Foundation stomps all over the learning curves of
>> > their customers with respect to Vista by
>>
>> Oh please. Now you're just laying it on thick. Fluff and bluster so
>> far.
>>
>> > 1) denying them access to Beta chats where some real info is exchanged
>> > that only approximately 100-200 people out of 27000 Beta testors in
>> > different groups including but not restricted to TBT and TAP and those
>> > added in the last few months. Instead of sensibly providing a central
>> > link
>> > for all the chats on the MSFT web site, say
>> > http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista and the Technet site and MSDN
>> > they
>> > hide the chats. Selected MSDN bloggers put selected chats on line, and
>> > afik the chats aren't under any NDA. How inconsiderate to hide them
>> > from
>> > the public.
>>
>> Have you ever gone to a meeting attended by 200 people? How much actual
>> progress gets made in such a meeting? Ok now lets put 10 MS reps in a
>> room
>> with 27,000 people and see how much meaningful dialog occurs. If all
>> 27,000
>> people we given 1 minute to speak (forget MS speaking) it would take 11
>> weeks (8hrs a day, 5 days a week for 11 weeks) for everyone to finish.
>> How
>> can this be productive?
>>
>> > How anti learning for a company who considers its employees elete
>> > applicants with creme de la crem academic pedigress although this is
>> > hardly the case.
>>
>> More freakishness from you, validating the insanity of your rantings.
>>
>> > 2) MSFT also denies their public customer base who put food on their
>> > tables and toys in their homes access to multiple *Beta Live Meetings
>> > on
>> > Vista (I'm not talking about the infrequent and question limited
>> > Technet
>> > LMs) during the week and refuses to archive them. They have no more
>> > than
>> > 200 and often less attendies. There are 27000 plus TBTs.
>>
>> Get real. I dare you to walk into the center of a basketball stadium of
>> 27,000 people and try to get something meaningful out of the attendees.
>>
>> > 3) MSFT also restricts their Beta newsgroups from the public and there
>> > is
>> > no reason to do so. The public Vista grousp are considerably less in
>> > number, and the information is considerably less in quality with even
>> > more
>> > newbie questions than on the TBT groups.
>>
>> It is restricted precisely because of people like you, who seem to offer
>> nothing more than a lot of knee-jerking and outlandish conspiracy
>> theories.
>> Meanwhile, real work needs to get done by real people, working on real
>> problems, and needing feedback from objective people who understand the
>> processes involved. For example, our government would cease to exist and
>> anarchy would ensue if every American were allowed free access to come
>> and
>> go and voice their opinion in our courtrooms, senate and house of
>> representatives at will. There has to be some restrictions in place, or
>> no
>> real work would ever get done.
>>
>> > MSFT's only regard for the public is in the context of a file and
>> > settings
>> > transfer manger--to transfer as much bandwidth of cash into the MSFT
>> > pockets from the public as possible.
>>
>> More freak hyperbole. Rant on, but nobody is listening to you anymore.
>>
>> > MSFT has Community Liasons assigned to key Vista teams who have not
>> > lifted
>> > a finger to publish comprehensive information on the MSFT public
>> > websites.
>> > Excellent information is available on MSDN and Technet blogs, but they
>> > are
>> > known and used by a limited number and subset of people.
>>
>> HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! "I am complaining because you put the information out
>> there
>> but people don't go there and read it!" You know the old saying, "you
>> can
>> lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink?" Well, welcome to
>> reality buddy. Pardon the world for not spoon-feeding you.
>>
>> > No comprehensive and decent level information is available on SFC and
>> > Win
>> > RE in Vista on any MSFT site. What is there is insulting to anyone with
>> > an
>> > interest in Windows who is provides consistent considerable help for
>> > your
>> > customers on your newsgroups.
>>
>> Again, wiping away the insanity and hyperbole, is this really the root of
>> your complaint? You want more information on a pre-release system and
>> are
>> mad because you haven't got it?
>>
>> You sir, are a sad, strange little man.
>>
>> > Correct this eggregious lack of information immediately.
>>
>> Translation: Stop working on the code, put a hold on all release dates,
>> and
>> feed me information so I can then complain that you are spending way too
>> much time documenting instead of actually releasing something.
>>
>> > 1) Make the Beta chats public and archive them in a central place
>> > and
>> > showcase this on your community websites and Vista sites.
>>
>> Translation: Turn beta chats into disorganized chaos where 27,000 people
>> can spam questions that a dozen MS employees could never hope to answer,
>> thereby ensuring that no questions get answered and nothing is
>> accomplished.
>>
>> > 2) Make the Beta Live Meetings all public and archive them in a
>> > central
>> > place and showcase this on your community websites and Vista sites.
>>
>> Same as #1
>>
>> > 3) Stop hiding bug access for Beta testers. TBTs have offered to
>> > check
>> > them for adults who are interested on your public newsgroups. That arms
>> > length approach would be pathetic.
>>
>> With whiners and complainers like you, I can't say I blame them for
>> making
>> the bugs private. Morons latch onto little things like "when I hit F1 at
>> this dialog it pauses for 1 second before loading help" and complain when
>> their bug gets marked as "duh you're stupid" -- err, I mean "Wont Fix".
>> People actually think Vista should be held back until every single bug
>> any
>> schmoe ever submitted is corrected. Sorry, but that ain't going to
>> happen.
>>
>> > 4) The public doesn't have any feedback as to efforts they expend to
>> > give you bug information. MSFT doesn't give a damn what the unwashed
>> > public thinks. Your arrogance that cost you nearly 250 million and
>> > growing
>> > fines after Brad Smith's litigation with the European Union (make sure
>> > Brad gets a big Christmas bonus) is systemically branded on this policy
>> > that is going to generate untrained Vista users in your public customer
>> > base.
>> > Get the Community writers on the Vista teams off their butts and
>> > have
>> > them post comprehensive articles on the MSFT Vista sites, not some
>> > pathetic cheerleading manual like the "Product Guide." You are about 50
>> > days from an October 25 Internal RTM which is shoving this half baked
>> > unfinished
>>
>> More incomprehensible rantings which neither justify your complaints,
>> validate any point, or have any reasonable relation to any of your other
>> rantings. Articles take time to write, information takes time to
>> disseminate, and you can't document something that's still being
>> developed
>> or whiners like you will complain it's inaccurate.
>>
>> [snip duplicate rantings]
>>
>> > Vista is not to use the MSFT synchophant mantra in the category that it
>> > "like so rocks." That's crap.
>>
>> Translation: I have no idea what "synchophant" means but it sounds cool
>> and
>> so I had to use it in a sentence.
>> The word is however, similar to "sycophant" which is defined as a toadie
>> or
>> parasite, or a person who seeks favor by flattering people of higher
>> station.
>>
>> > A more realistic take is the article by Ed Bott who says if you stick
>> > to
>> > your current time table it will be horrendous. Ed Bott is the author of
>> > MSFT Press Windows Vista Inside Out, Windows XP Inside Out, and runs
>> > too
>> > blogs. Read them. Learn what Vista is really like.
>>
>> After all these paragraphs of your ranting, now you're telling MS to get
>> real? I think you're the one that needs to get real, my friend.
>>
>> > I would be happy to go one on one with any one from Redmond MSFT and
>> > point
>> > out what isn't being fixed in RC1 today."
>>
>> You and Kevin Panzke think you have such great "above and beyond"
>> knowledge
>> that Microsoft should just fly you to Redmond to be consultants. In
>> reality, you just need to get out of your parent's basement once in a
>> while.
>>
>> Robert
>>
>> P.S. Just for fun, and because I find it rather amusing that whiners and
>> moaners typically use big words they can't spell:
>> deffered
>> quintissential
>> testors
>> elete
>> pedigress
>> attendies
>> Liasons
>> eggregious
>> synchophant
>>
>>
>>

LOL Robert--

For what I assume is a grown man's body, you pack a lot of epithets you
should have left on the elementary school cutting room floor. You're prime
time proof of the Wordsworth and Hopkins observations that "The Child is
father of the man."

The only fluff and bluster and trajectory down fast is your syncophantic
feined outrage. Are you a closet Redmon softie?

"Fluff and bluster my ass." You profess to know Windows, Vista and MSFT.
Bring it my man. Show me comprehensive articles on the major features of
Vista. Where are articles on Win RE, System File Checker, and a panopoly of
other features in detail on any MSFT site, the Help server for Vista,
Technet, or MSDN.

How anti learning for a company who considers its employees elete
applicants with creme de la crem academic pedigress although this is hardly
the case.

"More freakishness from you, validating the insanity of your rantings."

LOL I think you set the bar for state of the art rants Robert. "Insanity"?
LOL I have a ton of posts here and on the XP groups for years fixing things.
The people that got them fixed didn't think they were insane.

It's not fluff and bluster that I know my way around the MSFT sites and
that company as well as you do, and you can't find them because they
haven't been written. I've been all over the team members msdn blogs as
well.

The chats are not in one simple one stop shop place as they should be
archived, and as MSFT archives most of their chats. And they are closed.
The beta chats could be found by the public but they have to look hard for
them. Chats of all kinds, Windows, and Office, Technet, MSDN, XP are
archived, but these are not.


"Your opening paragraph is aggressive and accusatory." You're damn right.
I want them to fix the access to inforamation that lacks a sound
rationaled for blocking. I spend a lot of time on groups and forums fixing
things. I got tired of fixing them in XP when MSFT could have fixed many
prior to RTM and I see a lot broken shipping in Vista. It's about getting
anything out the door; not getting carefully crafted quality out the door.
This puppy is about to RTM. Little significant is going to change and
service packs basically change the code vulnerablities for security in a
Windows OS, not substantive functionality.

1) I've looked at every build of Vista and I profess to have knowledge of
the bugs, the bugs that they closed, the continual outcry of TBTs when
their bugs were ignored, the cascades of snafus and screwups during the bug
process, and the fact remains they don't want the public to know what they
are doing with the bugs and proferr to the public in countless
locations--their blogs, their sites that they are seriously vetting the
bugs. They aren't. That's fact.

I can look at Vista; I have as much knowledge of the inner workings as I
need to. I see the bugs; I see what doesn't get fixed, and again they
refuse to give the public access to bug searches and context of other bugs
yet expect them to spend time reporting them.

Device Manager lies when a driver is courrupt. It's been around since 1995.
Try to tell us it's accurate when a driver is corrupted because I can prove
you wrong in a Brooklyn Bridge heart beat. Fluff and bluster my ass. They
haven't fixed it in 12 years and 5 operating systems.

"Now you profess to have knowledge of the inner workings and decision making
process at Microsoft..." The inner workings aren't the issue but I have
reasonably good understanding of them for someone not working there--they
don't share a lot of hands on operation. The point is the bottom line is
they don't reveal the bugs to the pubic who can't even often check the
status of their own bug, because they don't fix a lot of them.

If you think I haven't been to meetings of all kinds, and sizes, I can't
fix your delusion. Have you ever gone to a meeting attended by 200 people?
[LOL what do you think as to that?

"How much actual progress gets made in such a meeting?

I've seen the Beta chats--hundreds of questions get asked and the answer
level is sometimes poor but it's much better than the public chats where
say, the IE team can be and often is flip and condescending to the point of
imparting no substantive information. I can dissect one of the transcripts
and show you how poorly they answer questions about the IE security tab.
MSFT has done little to clarify that tab for the average user on their site
or in the IE6 Resource Kit for XP as well.

You really missed the boat as to people at a meeting. I said that there are
27,000 TBTs and ancillary groups. I didn't say all 27,000 had to be in the
same place at once. I was reporting the fraction of them that show up for
Beta chats and Beta Live Meetings closed to the public with the only result
that the publc loses the detailed learning value for everyday hands on
operation of Vista. MSFT's web sites are doing a **** poor job right now of
educating people on Vista--while questions here may indicate some people
want a little spoon feeding, most of them are very good users who work hard
to try to get things up and running with a lot of experience before they
even come and ask for help. Others may want to do it right and are wise
enough to try to flesh out detail and get confirmation in a group.

My gripe is that MSFT has so little regard for the public they couldn't get
off their ass to put all the chats in one place on the Vista site. There is
a lot of pop culture Wegner Edstrom esque graphics and cheerleading at
www.microsoft.com/windowsvista

That wouldn't require 27,000 or 2 being at a meeting. They could then view
them on demand. I suggested it to them, and I documented them blowing it
off.


"Clear, confident, and connected" does nothing to educate anyone on Vista.
It's marketing crap and false crap at that. A device manager that lies
about driver health isn't clear and it isn't competent.


Get real. I dare you to walk into the center of a basketball stadium of
27,000 people and try to get something meaningful out of the attendees.

Robert are you severly dyslexic? I didn't say 27,000 people needed to be at
the chats. I said they have 27000 TBTs and close to an average of 100
attend them. They could open them up to those who want to. 27000 again
again again is the number of TBTs and TAP and MVPs using Vista Beta that are
in existence.

I also pushed for locating them at one place instead of a few at one
writer's blog. I'm totally real. They could archive them and opening them
to the public is not the same as 27,000 of several group members showing up
some where. Archiving them has nothing to do with what number uses the
archives. Get real indeed.

"It is restricted precisely because of people like you, who seem to offer
nothing more than a lot of knee-jerking and outlandish conspiracy theories."

In fact Robert, a search on my posts here and in the Vista setup group shows
hundreds of posts by me to fix various aspects of Vista, setup, and a lost
XP and none by you. So I'd say you have a ton of catchup to do in the area
of real people working on real problems, and I've given plenty of feedback
on aspects of Vista that should have been fixed and aren't being fixed for a
long time. They're ignoring those bugs and they aren't fixing major
systemic problems in Vista.

"HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! "I am complaining because you put the information out
there
but people don't go there and read it!" You know the old saying, "you can
lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink?" Well, welcome to
reality buddy. Pardon the world for not spoon-feeding you.'"

Again Robert. You either need therapy, or basic reading skills, or a strong
hybrid of both. I'm pretty competent at drilling MSFT's sites and finding
information and my posts reflect that. You haven't read them. I'm not
asking anyone to "spoon feed me" I've been in the business for years of
answering questions on many MSFT newsgroups and chats of a subset who want
spoonfeeding. I'm not responsible for what others read or don't. I find
everything relevant on their sites, MSDN blogs, Technet blogs, and I get
plenty of material from them from other sources and I read and metabolize it
well.

Do a search on my posts and look at the links on MSFT sites and try to
convince yourself that I want to lol be spoonfed. You're really stepping on
some tender parts of your anatomy.

"Again, wiping away the insanity and hyperbole, is this really the root of
your complaint? You want more information on a pre-release system and are
mad because you haven't got it?"

Again, the Beta started in July 2005 and it's 14 months old and hell yes
there should have been more out by now. A number of people who have
commited toward writing Vista books for various publishers have made the
complaint and some in this space.

" Translation: Stop working on the code, put a hold on all release dates,
and
feed me information so I can then complain that you are spending way too
much time documenting instead of actually releasing something."

Yo Robert. Here's a little "inner workings" material for you. MSFT pays a
posse of community liason staff who are writers assinged to each major team
to write. They don't have a scintilla of nano-responsibility for writing
"code" or debugging "code." There job is to write about the features on
MSFT's web sites. Many of them haven't done their job. They've been in
places since before July 2005. This has nothing to do with anyone working
on the code stopping. Where do you get your bizarred delusions?

"Translation: Turn beta chats into disorganized chaos where 27,000 people "

Nope Robt. You missed it again. Again the 27000 is not the number I advocate
showing up. It's the number of designated MVPs, + TBTs, + Tap and a few
other groups. My point was how many people don't show up day to day to test
or participate on groups and again I was advocating central archiving of the
chats and Live Meetings as a common sense remedy that MSFT's pre-occupation
with marketing and money caused them to kick to the curb. There is no
earthly reason they can't do it. Some msdn bloggers are trying to post the
chats agreeing with me.

I know Robert, then you conclude that the MSDN Vista bloggers are insane
too. LOL to the 64th

I really really look forward to you many substantive posts, since I can't
find one, where you help people here with Vista issues. Have at it. I know
you just haven't gotten around to it.

CH


"Robert Simpson" <> wrote in message
news:...
> "Chad Harris" <> wrote in message
> news:...
>>
>> "MSFT has deployed an attitude of utmost contempt for the public and the
>> CPP by restricting information from them and defeating any semblance of a
>> learning curve. Connect blocks access to bug reports by the public.
>
> Your opening paragraph is aggressive and accusatory. Not a good way to
> begin a feedback form if you want to have your feedback taken seriously.
>
>> This is done with the intention of preventing their customsers from
>> contexting bugs, seeing bugs, realizing what won't be fixed or what is
>> deffered to "fix" and never will be by Blackcomb Vienna.
>
> Now you profess to have knowledge of the inner workings and decision
> making process at Microsoft, enough to know what their intentions are and
> the purpose behind them. We're going downhill fast!
>
>> MSFT further in the most quintissential anti-education posture possible
>> in contrast to the Gates Foundation stomps all over the learning curves
>> of their customers with respect to Vista by
>
> Oh please. Now you're just laying it on thick. Fluff and bluster so far.
>
>> 1) denying them access to Beta chats where some real info is exchanged
>> that only approximately 100-200 people out of 27000 Beta testors in
>> different groups including but not restricted to TBT and TAP and those
>> added in the last few months. Instead of sensibly providing a central
>> link for all the chats on the MSFT web site, say
>> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista and the Technet site and MSDN they
>> hide the chats. Selected MSDN bloggers put selected chats on line, and
>> afik the chats aren't under any NDA. How inconsiderate to hide them from
>> the public.
>
> Have you ever gone to a meeting attended by 200 people? How much actual
> progress gets made in such a meeting? Ok now lets put 10 MS reps in a
> room with 27,000 people and see how much meaningful dialog occurs. If all
> 27,000 people we given 1 minute to speak (forget MS speaking) it would
> take 11 weeks (8hrs a day, 5 days a week for 11 weeks) for everyone to
> finish. How can this be productive?
>
>> How anti learning for a company who considers its employees elete
>> applicants with creme de la crem academic pedigress although this is
>> hardly the case.
>
> More freakishness from you, validating the insanity of your rantings.
>
>> 2) MSFT also denies their public customer base who put food on their
>> tables and toys in their homes access to multiple *Beta Live Meetings on
>> Vista (I'm not talking about the infrequent and question limited Technet
>> LMs) during the week and refuses to archive them. They have no more than
>> 200 and often less attendies. There are 27000 plus TBTs.
>
> Get real. I dare you to walk into the center of a basketball stadium of
> 27,000 people and try to get something meaningful out of the attendees.
>
>> 3) MSFT also restricts their Beta newsgroups from the public and there is
>> no reason to do so. The public Vista grousp are considerably less in
>> number, and the information is considerably less in quality with even
>> more newbie questions than on the TBT groups.
>
> It is restricted precisely because of people like you, who seem to offer
> nothing more than a lot of knee-jerking and outlandish conspiracy
> theories. Meanwhile, real work needs to get done by real people, working
> on real problems, and needing feedback from objective people who
> understand the processes involved. For example, our government would
> cease to exist and anarchy would ensue if every American were allowed free
> access to come and go and voice their opinion in our courtrooms, senate
> and house of representatives at will. There has to be some restrictions
> in place, or no real work would ever get done.
>
>> MSFT's only regard for the public is in the context of a file and
>> settings transfer manger--to transfer as much bandwidth of cash into the
>> MSFT pockets from the public as possible.
>
> More freak hyperbole. Rant on, but nobody is listening to you anymore.
>
>> MSFT has Community Liasons assigned to key Vista teams who have not
>> lifted a finger to publish comprehensive information on the MSFT public
>> websites. Excellent information is available on MSDN and Technet blogs,
>> but they are known and used by a limited number and subset of people.
>
> HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! "I am complaining because you put the information out
> there but people don't go there and read it!" You know the old saying,
> "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink?" Well,
> welcome to reality buddy. Pardon the world for not spoon-feeding you.
>
>> No comprehensive and decent level information is available on SFC and Win
>> RE in Vista on any MSFT site. What is there is insulting to anyone with
>> an interest in Windows who is provides consistent considerable help for
>> your customers on your newsgroups.
>
> Again, wiping away the insanity and hyperbole, is this really the root of
> your complaint? You want more information on a pre-release system and are
> mad because you haven't got it?
>
> You sir, are a sad, strange little man.
>
>> Correct this eggregious lack of information immediately.
>
> Translation: Stop working on the code, put a hold on all release dates,
> and feed me information so I can then complain that you are spending way
> too much time documenting instead of actually releasing something.
>
>> 1) Make the Beta chats public and archive them in a central place and
>> showcase this on your community websites and Vista sites.
>
> Translation: Turn beta chats into disorganized chaos where 27,000 people
> can spam questions that a dozen MS employees could never hope to answer,
> thereby ensuring that no questions get answered and nothing is
> accomplished.
>
>> 2) Make the Beta Live Meetings all public and archive them in a
>> central place and showcase this on your community websites and Vista
>> sites.
>
> Same as #1
>
>> 3) Stop hiding bug access for Beta testers. TBTs have offered to check
>> them for adults who are interested on your public newsgroups. That arms
>> length approach would be pathetic.
>
> With whiners and complainers like you, I can't say I blame them for making
> the bugs private. Morons latch onto little things like "when I hit F1 at
> this dialog it pauses for 1 second before loading help" and complain when
> their bug gets marked as "duh you're stupid" -- err, I mean "Wont Fix".
> People actually think Vista should be held back until every single bug any
> schmoe ever submitted is corrected. Sorry, but that ain't going to
> happen.
>
>> 4) The public doesn't have any feedback as to efforts they expend to
>> give you bug information. MSFT doesn't give a damn what the unwashed
>> public thinks. Your arrogance that cost you nearly 250 million and
>> growing fines after Brad Smith's litigation with the European Union (make
>> sure Brad gets a big Christmas bonus) is systemically branded on this
>> policy that is going to generate untrained Vista users in your public
>> customer base.
>> Get the Community writers on the Vista teams off their butts and have
>> them post comprehensive articles on the MSFT Vista sites, not some
>> pathetic cheerleading manual like the "Product Guide." You are about 50
>> days from an October 25 Internal RTM which is shoving this half baked
>> unfinished
>
> More incomprehensible rantings which neither justify your complaints,
> validate any point, or have any reasonable relation to any of your other
> rantings. Articles take time to write, information takes time to
> disseminate, and you can't document something that's still being developed
> or whiners like you will complain it's inaccurate.
>
> [snip duplicate rantings]
>
>> Vista is not to use the MSFT synchophant mantra in the category that it
>> "like so rocks." That's crap.
>
> Translation: I have no idea what "synchophant" means but it sounds cool
> and so I had to use it in a sentence.
> The word is however, similar to "sycophant" which is defined as a toadie
> or parasite, or a person who seeks favor by flattering people of higher
> station.
>
>> A more realistic take is the article by Ed Bott who says if you stick to
>> your current time table it will be horrendous. Ed Bott is the author of
>> MSFT Press Windows Vista Inside Out, Windows XP Inside Out, and runs too
>> blogs. Read them. Learn what Vista is really like.
>
> After all these paragraphs of your ranting, now you're telling MS to get
> real? I think you're the one that needs to get real, my friend.
>
>> I would be happy to go one on one with any one from Redmond MSFT and
>> point out what isn't being fixed in RC1 today."
>
> You and Kevin Panzke think you have such great "above and beyond"
> knowledge that Microsoft should just fly you to Redmond to be consultants.
> In reality, you just need to get out of your parent's basement once in a
> while.
>
> Robert
>
> P.S. Just for fun, and because I find it rather amusing that whiners and
> moaners typically use big words they can't spell:
> deffered
> quintissential
> testors
> elete
> pedigress
> attendies
> Liasons
> eggregious
> synchophant
>
>

Hi Chad,

My feeling is that if Microsoft gave every one that had access to Vista
access to Connect then there would be more leaks than there already are. We
TechBeta members are not under a very strict NDA, but we are not allowed to
post anything that is in the private newsgroups or anything that is actually
found on the Vista Connect portal. I do think that there should be some way
for the users that send in feedback a way to see the status and update / add
comments but I don't think that making the Vista Connect portal a public
free for all would be a good thing either. I also think that it would
compromise the security and reliablity of a closed beta program. Microsoft
has it reasons for doing the things they do, but I don't think filing a
suggestion with a rant is the way to go about getting what you want done,
done. I think what you should do is contact Corey Snow on the Connect team
and voice your opinion with out the rant and see what he has to say. I have
been dealing with him on some issues for the past few days and he seems like
a good contact to go to with any suggestions, comments / concerns on
Connect. His rmail address is (). Also, I think it
is just like the Microsoft Certification tests, there has to be a ensured
level of security with the tests and also with millions of lines of
intellectual property that generates the revenue that makes the company go.

I do agree that there are some things that MS has done that could have been
done differently but I don't think that they are as bad as you make them out
to be. My suggestion to you is that when the next OS comes around e-mail the
alias that they setup and maybe if some of the Vista people are still there
contact them and give them legitimate reasons as to why you should be part
of the closed beta.
--
Tom Ziegmann
Microsoft Certified Professional
Windows Vista / Server Longhorn TechBeta Tester
Windows Server 2003 Service Pack 2 TechBeta Tester
"Chad Harris" <> wrote in message
news:%...
> LOL Robert--
>
> For what I assume is a grown man's body, you pack a lot of epithets you
> should have left on the elementary school cutting room floor. You're
> prime
> time proof of the Wordsworth and Hopkins observations that "The Child is
> father of the man."
>
> The only fluff and bluster and trajectory down fast is your syncophantic
> feined outrage. Are you a closet Redmon softie?
>
> "Fluff and bluster my ass." You profess to know Windows, Vista and MSFT.
> Bring it my man. Show me comprehensive articles on the major features of
> Vista. Where are articles on Win RE, System File Checker, and a panopoly
> of
> other features in detail on any MSFT site, the Help server for Vista,
> Technet, or MSDN.
>
> How anti learning for a company who considers its employees elete
> applicants with creme de la crem academic pedigress although this is
> hardly
> the case.
>
> "More freakishness from you, validating the insanity of your rantings."
>
> LOL I think you set the bar for state of the art rants Robert.
> "Insanity"?
> LOL I have a ton of posts here and on the XP groups for years fixing
> things.
> The people that got them fixed didn't think they were insane.
>
> It's not fluff and bluster that I know my way around the MSFT sites and
> that company as well as you do, and you can't find them because they
> haven't been written. I've been all over the team members msdn blogs as
> well.
>
> The chats are not in one simple one stop shop place as they should be
> archived, and as MSFT archives most of their chats. And they are closed.
> The beta chats could be found by the public but they have to look hard for
> them. Chats of all kinds, Windows, and Office, Technet, MSDN, XP are
> archived, but these are not.
>
>
> "Your opening paragraph is aggressive and accusatory." You're damn right.
> I want them to fix the access to inforamation that lacks a sound
> rationaled for blocking. I spend a lot of time on groups and forums
> fixing
> things. I got tired of fixing them in XP when MSFT could have fixed many
> prior to RTM and I see a lot broken shipping in Vista. It's about getting
> anything out the door; not getting carefully crafted quality out the door.
> This puppy is about to RTM. Little significant is going to change and
> service packs basically change the code vulnerablities for security in a
> Windows OS, not substantive functionality.
>
> 1) I've looked at every build of Vista and I profess to have knowledge of
> the bugs, the bugs that they closed, the continual outcry of TBTs when
> their bugs were ignored, the cascades of snafus and screwups during the
> bug
> process, and the fact remains they don't want the public to know what they
> are doing with the bugs and proferr to the public in countless
> locations--their blogs, their sites that they are seriously vetting the
> bugs. They aren't. That's fact.
>
> I can look at Vista; I have as much knowledge of the inner workings as I
> need to. I see the bugs; I see what doesn't get fixed, and again they
> refuse to give the public access to bug searches and context of other bugs
> yet expect them to spend time reporting them.
>
> Device Manager lies when a driver is courrupt. It's been around since
> 1995.
> Try to tell us it's accurate when a driver is corrupted because I can
> prove
> you wrong in a Brooklyn Bridge heart beat. Fluff and bluster my ass. They
> haven't fixed it in 12 years and 5 operating systems.
>
> "Now you profess to have knowledge of the inner workings and decision
> making
> process at Microsoft..." The inner workings aren't the issue but I have
> reasonably good understanding of them for someone not working there--they
> don't share a lot of hands on operation. The point is the bottom line is
> they don't reveal the bugs to the pubic who can't even often check the
> status of their own bug, because they don't fix a lot of them.
>
> If you think I haven't been to meetings of all kinds, and sizes, I can't
> fix your delusion. Have you ever gone to a meeting attended by 200
> people?
> [LOL what do you think as to that?
>
> "How much actual progress gets made in such a meeting?
>
> I've seen the Beta chats--hundreds of questions get asked and the answer
> level is sometimes poor but it's much better than the public chats where
> say, the IE team can be and often is flip and condescending to the point
> of
> imparting no substantive information. I can dissect one of the
> transcripts
> and show you how poorly they answer questions about the IE security tab.
> MSFT has done little to clarify that tab for the average user on their
> site
> or in the IE6 Resource Kit for XP as well.
>
> You really missed the boat as to people at a meeting. I said that there
> are
> 27,000 TBTs and ancillary groups. I didn't say all 27,000 had to be in
> the
> same place at once. I was reporting the fraction of them that show up for
> Beta chats and Beta Live Meetings closed to the public with the only
> result
> that the publc loses the detailed learning value for everyday hands on
> operation of Vista. MSFT's web sites are doing a **** poor job right now
> of
> educating people on Vista--while questions here may indicate some people
> want a little spoon feeding, most of them are very good users who work
> hard
> to try to get things up and running with a lot of experience before they
> even come and ask for help. Others may want to do it right and are wise
> enough to try to flesh out detail and get confirmation in a group.
>
> My gripe is that MSFT has so little regard for the public they couldn't
> get
> off their ass to put all the chats in one place on the Vista site. There
> is
> a lot of pop culture Wegner Edstrom esque graphics and cheerleading at
> www.microsoft.com/windowsvista
>
> That wouldn't require 27,000 or 2 being at a meeting. They could then view
> them on demand. I suggested it to them, and I documented them blowing it
> off.
>
>
> "Clear, confident, and connected" does nothing to educate anyone on Vista.
> It's marketing crap and false crap at that. A device manager that lies
> about driver health isn't clear and it isn't competent.
>
>
> Get real. I dare you to walk into the center of a basketball stadium of
> 27,000 people and try to get something meaningful out of the attendees.
>
> Robert are you severly dyslexic? I didn't say 27,000 people needed to be
> at
> the chats. I said they have 27000 TBTs and close to an average of 100
> attend them. They could open them up to those who want to. 27000 again
> again again is the number of TBTs and TAP and MVPs using Vista Beta that
> are
> in existence.
>
> I also pushed for locating them at one place instead of a few at one
> writer's blog. I'm totally real. They could archive them and opening
> them
> to the public is not the same as 27,000 of several group members showing
> up
> some where. Archiving them has nothing to do with what number uses the
> archives. Get real indeed.
>
> "It is restricted precisely because of people like you, who seem to offer
> nothing more than a lot of knee-jerking and outlandish conspiracy
> theories."
>
> In fact Robert, a search on my posts here and in the Vista setup group
> shows
> hundreds of posts by me to fix various aspects of Vista, setup, and a lost
> XP and none by you. So I'd say you have a ton of catchup to do in the
> area
> of real people working on real problems, and I've given plenty of feedback
> on aspects of Vista that should have been fixed and aren't being fixed for
> a
> long time. They're ignoring those bugs and they aren't fixing major
> systemic problems in Vista.
>
> "HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! "I am complaining because you put the information out
> there
> but people don't go there and read it!" You know the old saying, "you can
> lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink?" Well, welcome to
> reality buddy. Pardon the world for not spoon-feeding you.'"
>
> Again Robert. You either need therapy, or basic reading skills, or a
> strong
> hybrid of both. I'm pretty competent at drilling MSFT's sites and
> finding
> information and my posts reflect that. You haven't read them. I'm not
> asking anyone to "spoon feed me" I've been in the business for years of
> answering questions on many MSFT newsgroups and chats of a subset who want
> spoonfeeding. I'm not responsible for what others read or don't. I find
> everything relevant on their sites, MSDN blogs, Technet blogs, and I get
> plenty of material from them from other sources and I read and metabolize
> it
> well.
>
> Do a search on my posts and look at the links on MSFT sites and try to
> convince yourself that I want to lol be spoonfed. You're really stepping
> on
> some tender parts of your anatomy.
>
> "Again, wiping away the insanity and hyperbole, is this really the root of
> your complaint? You want more information on a pre-release system and are
> mad because you haven't got it?"
>
> Again, the Beta started in July 2005 and it's 14 months old and hell yes
> there should have been more out by now. A number of people who have
> commited toward writing Vista books for various publishers have made the
> complaint and some in this space.
>
> " Translation: Stop working on the code, put a hold on all release dates,
> and
> feed me information so I can then complain that you are spending way too
> much time documenting instead of actually releasing something."
>
> Yo Robert. Here's a little "inner workings" material for you. MSFT pays a
> posse of community liason staff who are writers assinged to each major
> team
> to write. They don't have a scintilla of nano-responsibility for writing
> "code" or debugging "code." There job is to write about the features on
> MSFT's web sites. Many of them haven't done their job. They've been in
> places since before July 2005. This has nothing to do with anyone working
> on the code stopping. Where do you get your bizarred delusions?
>
> "Translation: Turn beta chats into disorganized chaos where 27,000 people
> "
>
> Nope Robt. You missed it again. Again the 27000 is not the number I
> advocate
> showing up. It's the number of designated MVPs, + TBTs, + Tap and a few
> other groups. My point was how many people don't show up day to day to
> test
> or participate on groups and again I was advocating central archiving of
> the
> chats and Live Meetings as a common sense remedy that MSFT's
> pre-occupation
> with marketing and money caused them to kick to the curb. There is no
> earthly reason they can't do it. Some msdn bloggers are trying to post
> the
> chats agreeing with me.
>
> I know Robert, then you conclude that the MSDN Vista bloggers are insane
> too. LOL to the 64th
>
> I really really look forward to you many substantive posts, since I can't
> find one, where you help people here with Vista issues. Have at it. I
> know
> you just haven't gotten around to it.
>
> CH
>
>
> "Robert Simpson" <> wrote in message
> news:...
>> "Chad Harris" <> wrote in message
>> news:...
>>>
>>> "MSFT has deployed an attitude of utmost contempt for the public and the
>>> CPP by restricting information from them and defeating any semblance of
>>> a
>>> learning curve. Connect blocks access to bug reports by the public.
>>
>> Your opening paragraph is aggressive and accusatory. Not a good way to
>> begin a feedback form if you want to have your feedback taken seriously.
>>
>>> This is done with the intention of preventing their customsers from
>>> contexting bugs, seeing bugs, realizing what won't be fixed or what is
>>> deffered to "fix" and never will be by Blackcomb Vienna.
>>
>> Now you profess to have knowledge of the inner workings and decision
>> making process at Microsoft, enough to know what their intentions are and
>> the purpose behind them. We're going downhill fast!
>>
>>> MSFT further in the most quintissential anti-education posture possible
>>> in contrast to the Gates Foundation stomps all over the learning curves
>>> of their customers with respect to Vista by
>>
>> Oh please. Now you're just laying it on thick. Fluff and bluster so
>> far.
>>
>>> 1) denying them access to Beta chats where some real info is exchanged
>>> that only approximately 100-200 people out of 27000 Beta testors in
>>> different groups including but not restricted to TBT and TAP and those
>>> added in the last few months. Instead of sensibly providing a central
>>> link for all the chats on the MSFT web site, say
>>> http://www.microsoft.com/windowsvista and the Technet site and MSDN they
>>> hide the chats. Selected MSDN bloggers put selected chats on line, and
>>> afik the chats aren't under any NDA. How inconsiderate to hide them from
>>> the public.
>>
>> Have you ever gone to a meeting attended by 200 people? How much actual
>> progress gets made in such a meeting? Ok now lets put 10 MS reps in a
>> room with 27,000 people and see how much meaningful dialog occurs. If
>> all
>> 27,000 people we given 1 minute to speak (forget MS speaking) it would
>> take 11 weeks (8hrs a day, 5 days a week for 11 weeks) for everyone to
>> finish. How can this be productive?
>>
>>> How anti learning for a company who considers its employees elete
>>> applicants with creme de la crem academic pedigress although this is
>>> hardly the case.
>>
>> More freakishness from you, validating the insanity of your rantings.
>>
>>> 2) MSFT also denies their public customer base who put food on their
>>> tables and toys in their homes access to multiple *Beta Live Meetings on
>>> Vista (I'm not talking about the infrequent and question limited Technet
>>> LMs) during the week and refuses to archive them. They have no more than
>>> 200 and often less attendies. There are 27000 plus TBTs.
>>
>> Get real. I dare you to walk into the center of a basketball stadium of
>> 27,000 people and try to get something meaningful out of the attendees.
>>
>>> 3) MSFT also restricts their Beta newsgroups from the public and there
>>> is
>>> no reason to do so. The public Vista grousp are considerably less in
>>> number, and the information is considerably less in quality with even
>>> more newbie questions than on the TBT groups.
>>
>> It is restricted precisely because of people like you, who seem to offer
>> nothing more than a lot of knee-jerking and outlandish conspiracy
>> theories. Meanwhile, real work needs to get done by real people, working
>> on real problems, and needing feedback from objective people who
>> understand the processes involved. For example, our government would
>> cease to exist and anarchy would ensue if every American were allowed
>> free
>> access to come and go and voice their opinion in our courtrooms, senate
>> and house of representatives at will. There has to be some restrictions
>> in place, or no real work would ever get done.
>>
>>> MSFT's only regard for the public is in the context of a file and
>>> settings transfer manger--to transfer as much bandwidth of cash into the
>>> MSFT pockets from the public as possible.
>>
>> More freak hyperbole. Rant on, but nobody is listening to you anymore.
>>
>>> MSFT has Community Liasons assigned to key Vista teams who have not
>>> lifted a finger to publish comprehensive information on the MSFT public
>>> websites. Excellent information is available on MSDN and Technet blogs,
>>> but they are known and used by a limited number and subset of people.
>>
>> HAHAHAHAHAHA!!! "I am complaining because you put the information out
>> there but people don't go there and read it!" You know the old saying,
>> "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make it drink?" Well,
>> welcome to reality buddy. Pardon the world for not spoon-feeding you.
>>
>>> No comprehensive and decent level information is available on SFC and
>>> Win
>>> RE in Vista on any MSFT site. What is there is insulting to anyone with
>>> an interest in Windows who is provides consistent considerable help for
>>> your customers on your newsgroups.
>>
>> Again, wiping away the insanity and hyperbole, is this really the root of
>> your complaint? You want more information on a pre-release system and
>> are
>> mad because you haven't got it?
>>
>> You sir, are a sad, strange little man.
>>
>>> Correct this eggregious lack of information immediately.
>>
>> Translation: Stop working on the code, put a hold on all release dates,
>> and feed me information so I can then complain that you are spending way
>> too much time documenting instead of actually releasing something.
>>
>>> 1) Make the Beta chats public and archive them in a central place and
>>> showcase this on your community websites and Vista sites.
>>
>> Translation: Turn beta chats into disorganized chaos where 27,000 people
>> can spam questions that a dozen MS employees could never hope to answer,
>> thereby ensuring that no questions get answered and nothing is
>> accomplished.
>>
>>> 2) Make the Beta Live Meetings all public and archive them in a
>>> central place and showcase this on your community websites and Vista
>>> sites.
>>
>> Same as #1
>>
>>> 3) Stop hiding bug access for Beta testers. TBTs have offered to
>>> check
>>> them for adults who are interested on your public newsgroups. That arms
>>> length approach would be pathetic.
>>
>> With whiners and complainers like you, I can't say I blame them for
>> making
>> the bugs private. Morons latch onto little things like "when I hit F1 at
>> this dialog it pauses for 1 second before loading help" and complain when
>> their bug gets marked as "duh you're stupid" -- err, I mean "Wont Fix".
>> People actually think Vista should be held back until every single bug
>> any
>> schmoe ever submitted is corrected. Sorry, but that ain't going to
>> happen.
>>
>>> 4) The public doesn't have any feedback as to efforts they expend to
>>> give you bug information. MSFT doesn't give a damn what the unwashed
>>> public thinks. Your arrogance that cost you nearly 250 million and
>>> growing fines after Brad Smith's litigation with the European Union
>>> (make
>>> sure Brad gets a big Christmas bonus) is systemically branded on this
>>> policy that is going to generate untrained Vista users in your public
>>> customer base.
>>> Get the Community writers on the Vista teams off their butts and have
>>> them post comprehensive articles on the MSFT Vista sites, not some
>>> pathetic cheerleading manual like the "Product Guide." You are about 50
>>> days from an October 25 Internal RTM which is shoving this half baked
>>> unfinished
>>
>> More incomprehensible rantings which neither justify your complaints,
>> validate any point, or have any reasonable relation to any of your other
>> rantings. Articles take time to write, information takes time to
>> disseminate, and you can't document something that's still being
>> developed
>> or whiners like you will complain it's inaccurate.
>>
>> [snip duplicate rantings]
>>
>>> Vista is not to use the MSFT synchophant mantra in the category that it
>>> "like so rocks." That's crap.
>>
>> Translation: I have no idea what "synchophant" means but it sounds cool
>> and so I had to use it in a sentence.
>> The word is however, similar to "sycophant" which is defined as a toadie
>> or parasite, or a person who seeks favor by flattering people of higher
>> station.
>>
>>> A more realistic take is the article by Ed Bott who says if you stick to
>>> your current time table it will be horrendous. Ed Bott is the author of
>>> MSFT Press Windows Vista Inside Out, Windows XP Inside Out, and runs too
>>> blogs. Read them. Learn what Vista is really like.
>>
>> After all these paragraphs of your ranting, now you're telling MS to get
>> real? I think you're the one that needs to get real, my friend.
>>
>>> I would be happy to go one on one with any one from Redmond MSFT and
>>> point out what isn't being fixed in RC1 today."
>>
>> You and Kevin Panzke think you have such great "above and beyond"
>> knowledge that Microsoft should just fly you to Redmond to be
>> consultants.
>> In reality, you just need to get out of your parent's basement once in a
>> while.
>>
>> Robert
>>
>> P.S. Just for fun, and because I find it rather amusing that whiners and
>> moaners typically use big words they can't spell:
>> deffered
>> quintissential
>> testors
>> elete
>> pedigress
>> attendies
>> Liasons
>> eggregious
>> synchophant
>>
>>
>