New Windows Live Betas Available for Download

http://www.activewin.com/awin/commen...ineIndex=39504

Microsoft has released new betas for Windows Live Messenger (8.5 Beta 1),
Windows Live Mail (Beta 1), and Windows Live Writer (Beta 2). The Windows
Messenger blog (linked in the headline) offers an overview of what's new in
each product. In-depth views of Windows Live Mail and Windows Live Writer
are available on their respective blogs.

Kroger Trading Suggests more buyout Speculation

Read it here first:

http://supermarketnews.com/retail_fi...t_speculation/

P.S. I have added no commentary, Just FYI :-)



"Tiberius" <> wrote in message
news:%...
> http://www.activewin.com/awin/commen...ineIndex=39504
>
> Microsoft has released new betas for Windows Live Messenger (8.5 Beta 1),
> Windows Live Mail (Beta 1), and Windows Live Writer (Beta 2). The Windows
> Messenger blog (linked in the headline) offers an overview of what's new
> in each product. In-depth views of Windows Live Mail and Windows Live
> Writer are available on their respective blogs.
>
>

This will be my first and last post with the
"new" Windows Live Mail.

*Some* improvement, but it still wants to choke
on newsgroups and there's no customizing the
toolbar. Since I use Outlook for email, not using
this is no big deal. Windows Mail was awful before
and Windows Live Mail blows a little less. I'll stick
with Thunderbird for newsgroups.

I expected better. Oh well.


-Michael

"Tiberius" <> wrote in message news:#...
> http://www.activewin.com/awin/commen...ineIndex=39504
>
> Microsoft has released new betas for Windows Live Messenger (8.5 Beta 1),
> Windows Live Mail (Beta 1), and Windows Live Writer (Beta 2). The Windows
> Messenger blog (linked in the headline) offers an overview of what's new in
> each product. In-depth views of Windows Live Mail and Windows Live Writer
> are available on their respective blogs.

Michael

WLM is still a beta product. If you know what you want it to do or look like
when it's released, use it and suggest changes that you feel would make it
better. You could make a difference.

Windows Live Mail: Windows Live Mail Beta now available for download!:
http://morethanmail.spaces.live.com/...9A1!3459.entry


--

Ronnie Vernon
Microsoft MVP
Windows Shell/User


"MICHAEL" <> wrote in message
news:%...
> This will be my first and last post with the
> "new" Windows Live Mail.
> *Some* improvement, but it still wants to choke
> on newsgroups and there's no customizing the toolbar. Since I use Outlook
> for email, not using
> this is no big deal. Windows Mail was awful before
> and Windows Live Mail blows a little less. I'll stick
> with Thunderbird for newsgroups.
>
> I expected better. Oh well.
>
>
> -Michael
>
> "Tiberius" <> wrote in message
> news:#...
>> http://www.activewin.com/awin/commen...ineIndex=39504
>>
>> Microsoft has released new betas for Windows Live Messenger (8.5 Beta 1),
>> Windows Live Mail (Beta 1), and Windows Live Writer (Beta 2). The Windows
>> Messenger blog (linked in the headline) offers an overview of what's new
>> in each product. In-depth views of Windows Live Mail and Windows Live
>> Writer are available on their respective blogs.
>

lots of people were asking about vista-messenger 8.1 problems...

perhaps these have been solved in the beta 8.5




"Tiberius" <> wrote in message
news:#...
> http://www.activewin.com/awin/commen...ineIndex=39504
>
> Microsoft has released new betas for Windows Live Messenger (8.5 Beta 1),
> Windows Live Mail (Beta 1), and Windows Live Writer (Beta 2). The Windows
> Messenger blog (linked in the headline) offers an overview of what's new
> in each product. In-depth views of Windows Live Mail and Windows Live
> Writer are available on their respective blogs.
>
>

Ronnie,

What I want most out of WLM, better newsgroup performance and
functionality, is more than likely *not* going to happen. First, there
is a fundamental flaw with how messages are stored and accessed in
WLM, it's the same problem WM had. It just can not handle large newsgroups.
The very first group I went to after installing WLM was this group,
and WLM practically died trying to download the headers.
Thunderbird does this almost instantly, without blinking.
The same two day experience it takes to "catch up" or "mark all messages read"
still happens. Once again, with Thunderbird "mark all read" is instant.
Not being able to customize the toolbar is totally unacceptable, it's how
I navigate through newsgroups and the posts. Please, don't tell me about
keyboard shortcuts, I know. *I* want to use the toolbar and customize it like
you could in OE, like you can in Windows Mail, and like Thunderbird.
Personally, I don't think Microsoft cares about newsgroups. Most users don't
even know what they are. Although, Microsoft did have the Microsoft newsgroup
server already setup in WM. Of course, even then, many users still used that stupid
web based newsgroup access.

I can tell you some positives things about WLM; my compose and reply
windows appear instantly, that was not the case for WM. Being able to
get your Hotmail- I'm sure this will please many. No ads, and I do give
Microsoft a lot of credit on this. The ads were the primary reason I hated
WLMD. You can even turn off the search pane with its "relevant links".
It looks nice. Like Outlook, you can now minimize WLM to the notification
area or system tray (whatever people are calling that now).

Maybe I'll try it again. But the newsgroup performance and lack of toolbar
customization will keep me from seriously using it often. Thunderbird is just
far superior, maybe that will change. I doubt it, though.

Take care,

Michael

* Ronnie Vernon MVP:
> Michael
>
> WLM is still a beta product. If you know what you want it to do or look like
> when it's released, use it and suggest changes that you feel would make it
> better. You could make a difference.
>
> Windows Live Mail: Windows Live Mail Beta now available for download!:
> http://morethanmail.spaces.live.com/...9A1!3459.entry
>
>

I just installed the latest beta build of WLM and didn't experience this
problem at all, it downloaded the first 300 headers and then I just kept
clicking on the 'headers' button and it downloaded the next 300.

Downloading 300 at a time probably isn't practical but I don't mind, and I
believe there is a way you can increase it.

"MICHAEL" <> wrote in message
news:...
> Ronnie,
>
> What I want most out of WLM, better newsgroup performance and
> functionality, is more than likely *not* going to happen. First, there
> is a fundamental flaw with how messages are stored and accessed in
> WLM, it's the same problem WM had. It just can not handle large
> newsgroups.
> The very first group I went to after installing WLM was this group,
> and WLM practically died trying to download the headers.
> Thunderbird does this almost instantly, without blinking.
> The same two day experience it takes to "catch up" or "mark all messages
> read"
> still happens. Once again, with Thunderbird "mark all read" is instant.
> Not being able to customize the toolbar is totally unacceptable, it's how
> I navigate through newsgroups and the posts. Please, don't tell me about
> keyboard shortcuts, I know. *I* want to use the toolbar and customize it
> like
> you could in OE, like you can in Windows Mail, and like Thunderbird.
> Personally, I don't think Microsoft cares about newsgroups. Most users
> don't
> even know what they are. Although, Microsoft did have the Microsoft
> newsgroup
> server already setup in WM. Of course, even then, many users still used
> that stupid
> web based newsgroup access.
>
> I can tell you some positives things about WLM; my compose and reply
> windows appear instantly, that was not the case for WM. Being able to
> get your Hotmail- I'm sure this will please many. No ads, and I do give
> Microsoft a lot of credit on this. The ads were the primary reason I
> hated
> WLMD. You can even turn off the search pane with its "relevant links".
> It looks nice. Like Outlook, you can now minimize WLM to the notification
> area or system tray (whatever people are calling that now).
>
> Maybe I'll try it again. But the newsgroup performance and lack of
> toolbar
> customization will keep me from seriously using it often. Thunderbird is
> just
> far superior, maybe that will change. I doubt it, though.
>
> Take care,
>
> Michael
>
> * Ronnie Vernon MVP:
>> Michael
>>
>> WLM is still a beta product. If you know what you want it to do or look
>> like
>> when it's released, use it and suggest changes that you feel would make
>> it
>> better. You could make a difference.
>>
>> Windows Live Mail: Windows Live Mail Beta now available for download!:
>> http://morethanmail.spaces.live.com/...9A1!3459.entry
>>
>>

Retrieving a limited amount of headers at a time may be
easier on WLM, but, that can also cause other problems.
Some headers/messages not showing up, gaps in threads.
Even if you download the first 1,000- the count can get
screwed up royally. Trust me, on this.

If a user is not a big newsgroup reader or participates in
small groups, they may not really notice how terrible WLM
is at handling newsgroups. Also, the performance degrades
over time. The more groups you subscribe to and the more
posts you download will start to kick WLM's arse.


-Michael

* Ray Herring:
> I just installed the latest beta build of WLM and didn't experience this
> problem at all, it downloaded the first 300 headers and then I just kept
> clicking on the 'headers' button and it downloaded the next 300.
>
> Downloading 300 at a time probably isn't practical but I don't mind, and I
> believe there is a way you can increase it.
>
> "MICHAEL" <> wrote in message
> news:...
>> Ronnie,
>>
>> What I want most out of WLM, better newsgroup performance and
>> functionality, is more than likely *not* going to happen. First, there
>> is a fundamental flaw with how messages are stored and accessed in
>> WLM, it's the same problem WM had. It just can not handle large
>> newsgroups.
>> The very first group I went to after installing WLM was this group,
>> and WLM practically died trying to download the headers.
>> Thunderbird does this almost instantly, without blinking.
>> The same two day experience it takes to "catch up" or "mark all messages
>> read"
>> still happens. Once again, with Thunderbird "mark all read" is instant.
>> Not being able to customize the toolbar is totally unacceptable, it's how
>> I navigate through newsgroups and the posts. Please, don't tell me about
>> keyboard shortcuts, I know. *I* want to use the toolbar and customize it
>> like
>> you could in OE, like you can in Windows Mail, and like Thunderbird.
>> Personally, I don't think Microsoft cares about newsgroups. Most users
>> don't
>> even know what they are. Although, Microsoft did have the Microsoft
>> newsgroup
>> server already setup in WM. Of course, even then, many users still used
>> that stupid
>> web based newsgroup access.
>>
>> I can tell you some positives things about WLM; my compose and reply
>> windows appear instantly, that was not the case for WM. Being able to
>> get your Hotmail- I'm sure this will please many. No ads, and I do give
>> Microsoft a lot of credit on this. The ads were the primary reason I
>> hated
>> WLMD. You can even turn off the search pane with its "relevant links".
>> It looks nice. Like Outlook, you can now minimize WLM to the notification
>> area or system tray (whatever people are calling that now).
>>
>> Maybe I'll try it again. But the newsgroup performance and lack of
>> toolbar
>> customization will keep me from seriously using it often. Thunderbird is
>> just
>> far superior, maybe that will change. I doubt it, though.
>>
>> Take care,
>>
>> Michael
>>
>> * Ronnie Vernon MVP:
>>> Michael
>>>
>>> WLM is still a beta product. If you know what you want it to do or look
>>> like
>>> when it's released, use it and suggest changes that you feel would make
>>> it
>>> better. You could make a difference.
>>>
>>> Windows Live Mail: Windows Live Mail Beta now available for download!:
>>> http://morethanmail.spaces.live.com/...9A1!3459.entry
>>>
>>>

Michael

I agree but support newsgroup access has been a low priority with Microsoft
and many other corporate sponsored news servers for some time now. With the
advent of so many different web based support forums, blogs, and etc, many
high level people are looking at newsgroups as the "dinosaur" of support
communication. This makes it very difficult to push for features that
promote what is perceived as outdated technology.

See the following website, this is a very interesting debate.

Forums vs. Newsgroups Redux:
http://blogs.msdn.com/jim_glass/arch...ups-redux.aspx


--

Ronnie Vernon
Microsoft MVP
Windows Shell/User


"MICHAEL" <> wrote in message
news:...
> Ronnie,
>
> What I want most out of WLM, better newsgroup performance and
> functionality, is more than likely *not* going to happen. First, there
> is a fundamental flaw with how messages are stored and accessed in
> WLM, it's the same problem WM had. It just can not handle large
> newsgroups.
> The very first group I went to after installing WLM was this group,
> and WLM practically died trying to download the headers.
> Thunderbird does this almost instantly, without blinking.
> The same two day experience it takes to "catch up" or "mark all messages
> read"
> still happens. Once again, with Thunderbird "mark all read" is instant.
> Not being able to customize the toolbar is totally unacceptable, it's how
> I navigate through newsgroups and the posts. Please, don't tell me about
> keyboard shortcuts, I know. *I* want to use the toolbar and customize it
> like
> you could in OE, like you can in Windows Mail, and like Thunderbird.
> Personally, I don't think Microsoft cares about newsgroups. Most users
> don't
> even know what they are. Although, Microsoft did have the Microsoft
> newsgroup
> server already setup in WM. Of course, even then, many users still used
> that stupid
> web based newsgroup access.
>
> I can tell you some positives things about WLM; my compose and reply
> windows appear instantly, that was not the case for WM. Being able to
> get your Hotmail- I'm sure this will please many. No ads, and I do give
> Microsoft a lot of credit on this. The ads were the primary reason I
> hated
> WLMD. You can even turn off the search pane with its "relevant links".
> It looks nice. Like Outlook, you can now minimize WLM to the notification
> area or system tray (whatever people are calling that now).
>
> Maybe I'll try it again. But the newsgroup performance and lack of
> toolbar
> customization will keep me from seriously using it often. Thunderbird is
> just
> far superior, maybe that will change. I doubt it, though.
>
> Take care,
>
> Michael
>
> * Ronnie Vernon MVP:
>> Michael
>>
>> WLM is still a beta product. If you know what you want it to do or look
>> like
>> when it's released, use it and suggest changes that you feel would make
>> it
>> better. You could make a difference.
>>
>> Windows Live Mail: Windows Live Mail Beta now available for download!:
>> http://morethanmail.spaces.live.com/...9A1!3459.entry
>>
>>

<quote>
Obviously I’m biased towards the forums, but I really do believe that having the two channels
living side-by-side helps us reach our entire customer base with peer-to-peer support.
</quote>

That's from Joe Morel @ http://blogs.msdn.com/joemorel/archi...22/537177.aspx

I don't see Microsoft making much of effort anymore in having
newsgroups and forums "living side-by-side". And, I feel the neglect
is intentional.... drive users towards the forums.

While the web forums have attracted many new users, many of the ones answering
those forum questions are doing so via a newsgroup reader and a news server.
I may not answer 100 questions a day, but I do feel like I make a contribution,
and I can promise you if the only access was through the web forums, my participation
would drop tremendously... probably to nothing. I absolutely can not stand the web
forums. I'm sure many other users who are the ones actually answering the questions
that all those web forum posters ask, would agree.

Also, expecting WM or WLM to perform like they *should* is not a feature
request, and handling newsgroups at least as well as an open source free
product does should be a simple undertaking. I mean come on, this is the
largest and most profitable software company in the world. Something as
simple as toolbar customization was taken out of WLM, that's just dumb.

I would bet that practically all of us who take the time to help out in these
forums do so using the news server. And most of those asking most of the
questions are doing so through the web based crap. It just seems logical to
me that Microsoft would try to help it's free support staff be a little more happy
by offering a better product. Besides, I've always felt if something is actually part
of a program it should work and work well, otherwise don't offer it all.

Take care,

Michael

* Ronnie Vernon MVP:
> Michael
>
> I agree but support newsgroup access has been a low priority with Microsoft
> and many other corporate sponsored news servers for some time now. With the
> advent of so many different web based support forums, blogs, and etc, many
> high level people are looking at newsgroups as the "dinosaur" of support
> communication. This makes it very difficult to push for features that
> promote what is perceived as outdated technology.
>
> See the following website, this is a very interesting debate.
>
> Forums vs. Newsgroups Redux:
> http://blogs.msdn.com/jim_glass/arch...ups-redux.aspx
>
>