No junk email after converting WLM2011 Hotmail acct to POP3

I know this sounds crazy but I'm concerned that I'm no longer
receiving anything in my junk email folder.

I recently found that I could use my Hotmail account as POP3, so I
converted. Everything seems to be OK except that junk mail shown in my
WLM webmail is not showing in my WLM desktop client. I notice that all
my other POP3 accounts have a "Junk e-mail" folder whereas the new
Hotmail account has a "Junk email" folder. Would that be making the
difference? I can't rename it or delete it. I already did the "Repair
all Windows Live programs" recommendation but that didn't change
anything. Any help on this issue greatly appreciated. Thanks.

M.L. wrote:

> I know this sounds crazy but I'm concerned that I'm no longer
> receiving anything in my junk email folder.
>
> I recently found that I could use my Hotmail account as POP3, so I
> converted. Everything seems to be OK except that junk mail shown in my
> WLM webmail is not showing in my WLM desktop client. I notice that all
> my other POP3 accounts have a "Junk e-mail" folder whereas the new
> Hotmail account has a "Junk email" folder. Would that be making the
> difference? I can't rename it or delete it. I already did the "Repair
> all Windows Live programs" recommendation but that didn't change
> anything. Any help on this issue greatly appreciated. Thanks.

POP is a protocol that only understands the presence of a mailbox, not
folders. There are no commands in Post Office Protocol to select
folders because POP was designed to only see a mailbox. The folders you
see when using the webmail client to Hotmail are server-side
organizational structures. Only the web-side Inbox is the mailbox that
POP clients can see. Items in the web-side Inbox will show up in POP
clients. Items in other web-side folders (Spam, Trash, user-defined
folders) cannot be seen by POP clients.

IMAP lets you see more than just the web-side Inbox folder; that is, you
can have your IMAP client subscribe to other folders. Microsoft has
toyed with IMAP but never added it to Hotmail. They claim it takes more
work to maintain than POP or their own proprietary Deltasync scheme.
Yet e-mail providers have been supporting IMAP for 20 years without all
the professed troubles that Microsoft claims. If Microsoft brings IMAP
to Hotmail then users wouldn't have to bother with Deltasync which means
their choices immediately expand to any IMAP-capable client rather than
getting saddled with Microsoft's limited choices. So don't hold your
breath waiting for Microsoft to add IMAP support to Hotmail. Not likely
to happen.

If you use POP to access your e-mail account, it will only see the
mailbox that is accessed via the web-side Inbox folder for your account.
You'll have to use their webmail client to go looking at the non-Inbox
folders, like the Junk folder. Otherwise, you need to get screwed into
Microsoft's solutions that incorporate Deltasync support to give
IMAP-like access to your account. The other folders you see for a POP
account are local. They exist only in your local e-mail client. They
aren't tied to the web-side folders.

On Tue, 21 Dec 2010 13:12:09 -0600, M.L. wrote:

> I know this sounds crazy but I'm concerned that I'm no longer
> receiving anything in my junk email folder.
>
> I recently found that I could use my Hotmail account as POP3, so I
> converted. Everything seems to be OK except that junk mail shown in my
> WLM webmail is not showing in my WLM desktop client. I notice that all
> my other POP3 accounts have a "Junk e-mail" folder whereas the new
> Hotmail account has a "Junk email" folder. Would that be making the
> difference? I can't rename it or delete it. I already did the "Repair
> all Windows Live programs" recommendation but that didn't change
> anything. Any help on this issue greatly appreciated. Thanks.

I don't think that the name will make a difference. But I don't know if
Hotmail applies the filters before you POP the email. Could be that POP3
access is screwing with the filters. Hotmail was designed for HTTPMail
access by a client supporting the DeltaSynch protocol, such as Windows Live
Mail. (About the only other client I know of with DeltaSynch capability is
the Outlook Connector.)

--
Norman
~Oh Lord, why have you come
~To Konnyu, with the Lion and the Drum

>> I know this sounds crazy but I'm concerned that I'm no longer
>> receiving anything in my junk email folder.
>>
>> I recently found that I could use my Hotmail account as POP3, so I
>> converted. Everything seems to be OK except that junk mail shown in my
>> WLM webmail is not showing in my WLM desktop client. I notice that all
>> my other POP3 accounts have a "Junk e-mail" folder whereas the new
>> Hotmail account has a "Junk email" folder. Would that be making the
>> difference? I can't rename it or delete it. I already did the "Repair
>> all Windows Live programs" recommendation but that didn't change
>> anything. Any help on this issue greatly appreciated. Thanks.
>
>POP is a protocol that only understands the presence of a mailbox, not
>folders. There are no commands in Post Office Protocol to select
>folders because POP was designed to only see a mailbox. The folders you
>see when using the webmail client to Hotmail are server-side
>organizational structures. Only the web-side Inbox is the mailbox that
>POP clients can see. Items in the web-side Inbox will show up in POP
>clients. Items in other web-side folders (Spam, Trash, user-defined
>folders) cannot be seen by POP clients.

Thanks for your prompt and clear response. It looks like setting up a
POP3 Hotmail account was a mistake if it means I'll have to use
webmail to see everything. Guess I'll convert back to an HTTP Hotmail
account. Thanks again.

>IMAP lets you see more than just the web-side Inbox folder; that is, you
>can have your IMAP client subscribe to other folders. Microsoft has
>toyed with IMAP but never added it to Hotmail. They claim it takes more
>work to maintain than POP or their own proprietary Deltasync scheme.
>Yet e-mail providers have been supporting IMAP for 20 years without all
>the professed troubles that Microsoft claims. If Microsoft brings IMAP
>to Hotmail then users wouldn't have to bother with Deltasync which means
>their choices immediately expand to any IMAP-capable client rather than
>getting saddled with Microsoft's limited choices. So don't hold your
>breath waiting for Microsoft to add IMAP support to Hotmail. Not likely
>to happen.
>
>If you use POP to access your e-mail account, it will only see the
>mailbox that is accessed via the web-side Inbox folder for your account.
>You'll have to use their webmail client to go looking at the non-Inbox
>folders, like the Junk folder. Otherwise, you need to get screwed into
>Microsoft's solutions that incorporate Deltasync support to give
>IMAP-like access to your account. The other folders you see for a POP
>account are local. They exist only in your local e-mail client. They
>aren't tied to the web-side folders.

The Hotmail filters on the web server take precedent for any Hotmail type
account(Hotmail.com, Live.com, Msn.com or derivatives of the same domain
e.g. Hotmail.nl, Live.fr, msn.uk.com etc)

Before this last web update...one had more options in the Hotmail web
UI...since then these are your only options(Standard, Exclusive...no
Moderate setting or even a way to disable it so all mail is delivered to
your Inbox)

Choose a junk email filter
Select the filter level you want to apply to incoming messages.
Standard - Most junk email is sent to the junk email folder.
Exclusive - Everything is sent to the junk email folder except messages
from your contacts and safe senders, Windows Live Hotmail service
announcements, and alerts that you signed up for.
- Note: You should occasionally check your junk email folder to make sure
that good messages don't get put there by mistake.

Delete junk email
Junk email is automatically moved into the junk email folder, where it is
deleted after ten days.

Report junk messages
Choose whether you'd like to report messages to Microsoft and the companies
who help us fight junk email.
Report junk - Help us keep junk out of everyone's inboxes when you use the
Junk button.
Don't report - The Junk button will act just like the Delete button.
Nothing will be reported to Microsoft or anyone else.



--
....winston
msft mvp mail

"M.L." wrote in message news:...


I know this sounds crazy but I'm concerned that I'm no longer
receiving anything in my junk email folder.

I recently found that I could use my Hotmail account as POP3, so I
converted. Everything seems to be OK except that junk mail shown in my
WLM webmail is not showing in my WLM desktop client. I notice that all
my other POP3 accounts have a "Junk e-mail" folder whereas the new
Hotmail account has a "Junk email" folder. Would that be making the
difference? I can't rename it or delete it. I already did the "Repair
all Windows Live programs" recommendation but that didn't change
anything. Any help on this issue greatly appreciated. Thanks.

>- Note: You should occasionally check your junk email folder to make sure
>that good messages don't get put there by mistake.

That's what triggered my concern about not receiving my any junk mail.

Thanks for your reply. I reestablished my HTTP Hotmail account and now
everything is back to normal. I even went to the Hotmail website to
add some spam filters to keep them from getting to my desktop.
Apparently Hotmail allows more custom spam filters than they used to.
Hadn't used their webmail site in years.

In case you missed it on your once-in-a-decade trip <vbg>...the Hotmail Web
UI now offers Nested folders(creatable in the web UI and/or the WLM).

More info:
Creating Nested Folders(Subfolders) in Windows Live Hotmail
http://liveunplugged.wordpress.com/2...-live-hotmail/


--
....winston
msft mvp mail

"M.L." wrote in message news:...



>- Note: You should occasionally check your junk email folder to make sure
>that good messages don't get put there by mistake.

That's what triggered my concern about not receiving my any junk mail.

Thanks for your reply. I reestablished my HTTP Hotmail account and now
everything is back to normal. I even went to the Hotmail website to
add some spam filters to keep them from getting to my desktop.
Apparently Hotmail allows more custom spam filters than they used to.
Hadn't used their webmail site in years.

"...winston" <> wrote in message
news:ier666$4q0$...
> The Hotmail filters on the web server take precedent for any Hotmail type
> account(Hotmail.com, Live.com, Msn.com or derivatives of the same domain
> e.g. Hotmail.nl, Live.fr, msn.uk.com etc)
>
> Before this last web update...one had more options in the Hotmail web
> UI...since then these are your only options(Standard, Exclusive...no
> Moderate setting or even a way to disable it so all mail is delivered to
> your Inbox)

Hey, winston!

I'm sure you recall my complaint about the inability to to OFF junk
filtering on Hotmail, and I think I've found a way around it which I'm
currently testing.

Options>More Options>Customizing Hotmail>Rules for sorting new messages

Create a New Rule:
Where Sender's address contains "@" Move to Inbox

Simple. So far, so good, I'm getting my desired quota of penile enlargement
& Gevalia coffee offers, and *nothing* has landed in my Junk folder.

snork wrote:

> "...winston" <> wrote in message
> news:ier666$4q0$...
>> The Hotmail filters on the web server take precedent for any Hotmail type
>> account(Hotmail.com, Live.com, Msn.com or derivatives of the same domain
>> e.g. Hotmail.nl, Live.fr, msn.uk.com etc)
>>
>> Before this last web update...one had more options in the Hotmail web
>> UI...since then these are your only options(Standard, Exclusive...no
>> Moderate setting or even a way to disable it so all mail is delivered to
>> your Inbox)
>
> Hey, winston!
>
> I'm sure you recall my complaint about the inability to to OFF junk
> filtering on Hotmail, and I think I've found a way around it which I'm
> currently testing.
>
> Options>More Options>Customizing Hotmail>Rules for sorting new messages
>
> Create a New Rule:
> Where Sender's address contains "@" Move to Inbox
>
> Simple. So far, so good, I'm getting my desired quota of penile enlargement
> & Gevalia coffee offers, and *nothing* has landed in my Junk folder.

The From header is *data* that the sender's client added to the message
(i.e., part of the headers section of the message composed by the e-mail
client, NOT added by the sending mail server). That means the sender
can put anything they want in that field. While RFCs require the From
header to be present, it isn't used in the delivery of an e-mail. The
sending mail server may require this header but it may not check, and it
may not check that its value is a validly syntaxed e-mail string.

So besides the check that there is an ampersand in the From header (to
move all matching items into the Inbox), and to be complete, you would
also need to follow with another rule that checks the ampersand is
missing from the From value (and also move those matching items into the
Inbox folder). However, it is highly likely that a From value missing
the ampersand is from a spam/scam/phish sender (but I have seen some
bulk mailers for newsletters, libraries, etc that didn't have a legit
e-mail value in the From header).

"VanguardLH" <> wrote in message
news:if03i3$f1g$...
>
> So besides the check that there is an ampersand in the From header (to
> move all matching items into the Inbox), and to be complete, you would
> also need to follow with another rule that checks the ampersand is
> missing from the From value (and also move those matching items into the
> Inbox folder). However, it is highly likely that a From value missing
> the ampersand is from a spam/scam/phish sender (but I have seen some
> bulk mailers for newsletters, libraries, etc that didn't have a legit
> e-mail value in the From header).


You are correct. I suppose to be complete I would make one more rule.

When i first tried it I was just a bit worried about creating some kind of
loop; it's hard to tell where in the process user-defined message rules kick
in. Apparently they take precedence over Hotmail's Junk rules.