OT: managing file fragmentation on external USB backup drive (SBS2003)

Just wondering how others are managing file fragmentation on their
external USB backup drives (SBS 2003)? I have two WD 500GB drives that i
rotate weekly (each backup is around 55GB currently) but periodically
the server will "freeze" during a backup (fans on, but no response at
all) and requires a hard reboot to get going again.

The first time it did it, i had no idea what caused it, but on
subsequent occurrences I narrowed it down to the external hard drive
itself - after the reboot, simply trying to access the drive via Windows
Explorer on the server caused the server to freeze again. I transferred
the drive to a Vista workstation and had the same problem (workstation
froze). I initially thought the drive was broken, but I managed to
reformat the drive in Vista and then transferred it back to the server
where it worked absolutely fine for a couple of months until the same
issue returned. I have also had the same issue on the other USB drive.

I believe the issue is high file fragmentation on the drive itself, so I
have been scheduling a weekly defrag to see if it helps. However, the
defrag itself doesn't seem to work correctly. I have tried the Windows
defrag utility, which basically made no difference at all (still highly
fragmented after several scheduled defrags) and also JKDefrag. I ran
JKDefrag from the command line, but after 36 hrs it was still sitting at
the "Analyze" stage and I killed the process.

Anyone had this issue before and how do you manage your backup drives? I
guess the only other option is periodic formats...???

thanks.

I have a pair of 500 gig drives I was using with SBS 2003. I've since
migrated to SBS 2008 and am pleased to say that the same pair of drives work
FAR better with the backup mechanism in SBS 2008--I've months of complete
backups on them now, as opposed to about a week with SBS 2003.

However--in answer to your question: I tried defragmenting the drives under
SBS 2003, and had a similar experience to yours--just too slow.

So--I simply deleted old backups and ignored the fragmentation issue. I
didn't have the side effects you are seeing, so nothing further seemed
indicated.



"James Hurrell" <"j_a_hurrell at hotmail com"> wrote in message
news:...
> Just wondering how others are managing file fragmentation on their
> external USB backup drives (SBS 2003)? I have two WD 500GB drives that i
> rotate weekly (each backup is around 55GB currently) but periodically the
> server will "freeze" during a backup (fans on, but no response at all) and
> requires a hard reboot to get going again.
>
> The first time it did it, i had no idea what caused it, but on subsequent
> occurrences I narrowed it down to the external hard drive itself - after
> the reboot, simply trying to access the drive via Windows Explorer on the
> server caused the server to freeze again. I transferred the drive to a
> Vista workstation and had the same problem (workstation froze). I
> initially thought the drive was broken, but I managed to reformat the
> drive in Vista and then transferred it back to the server where it worked
> absolutely fine for a couple of months until the same issue returned. I
> have also had the same issue on the other USB drive.
>
> I believe the issue is high file fragmentation on the drive itself, so I
> have been scheduling a weekly defrag to see if it helps. However, the
> defrag itself doesn't seem to work correctly. I have tried the Windows
> defrag utility, which basically made no difference at all (still highly
> fragmented after several scheduled defrags) and also JKDefrag. I ran
> JKDefrag from the command line, but after 36 hrs it was still sitting at
> the "Analyze" stage and I killed the process.
>
> Anyone had this issue before and how do you manage your backup drives? I
> guess the only other option is periodic formats...???
>
> thanks.

Are the drives using NTFS? I've completely ignored the issue of
fragmentation on my external drives but have not seen any symptoms as a
result (although I'm sure they could stand to be defragged).


"James Hurrell" <"j_a_hurrell at hotmail com"> wrote in message
news:...
> Just wondering how others are managing file fragmentation on their
> external USB backup drives (SBS 2003)? I have two WD 500GB drives that i
> rotate weekly (each backup is around 55GB currently) but periodically the
> server will "freeze" during a backup (fans on, but no response at all) and
> requires a hard reboot to get going again.
>
> The first time it did it, i had no idea what caused it, but on subsequent
> occurrences I narrowed it down to the external hard drive itself - after
> the reboot, simply trying to access the drive via Windows Explorer on the
> server caused the server to freeze again. I transferred the drive to a
> Vista workstation and had the same problem (workstation froze). I
> initially thought the drive was broken, but I managed to reformat the
> drive in Vista and then transferred it back to the server where it worked
> absolutely fine for a couple of months until the same issue returned. I
> have also had the same issue on the other USB drive.
>
> I believe the issue is high file fragmentation on the drive itself, so I
> have been scheduling a weekly defrag to see if it helps. However, the
> defrag itself doesn't seem to work correctly. I have tried the Windows
> defrag utility, which basically made no difference at all (still highly
> fragmented after several scheduled defrags) and also JKDefrag. I ran
> JKDefrag from the command line, but after 36 hrs it was still sitting at
> the "Analyze" stage and I killed the process.
>
> Anyone had this issue before and how do you manage your backup drives? I
> guess the only other option is periodic formats...???
>
> thanks.

Hi Dave,

Yes they are... with a 55GB backup file FAT32 wasn't going to cut it!

Might be an issue with these particular drives I guess...


Dave Nickason [SBS MVP] wrote:
> Are the drives using NTFS? I've completely ignored the issue of
> fragmentation on my external drives but have not seen any symptoms as a
> result (although I'm sure they could stand to be defragged).

Even a heavily fragmented drive should not cause a server to freeze as you
describe. I've even seen 100% full heavily fragmented *system* partitions
and this doesn't occur. The server may not finish booting, but it'll tell
you WHY.

For a server to freeze, it means that the hardware is responding in some
unexpected way. In most cases this means that the USB controller on the
external HD that is supposed to translate from USB to ATA incorrectly
implemented some commands. So 99% of the time you don't notice it, but on a
drive that is more full and the OS starts attempting to squeeze data into
the empty spaces, the USB2ATA controller throws back some bogus data.

I'd check to see if there are any firmware updates for the hard drives, and
replace them if necessary.

-Cliff


"James Hurrell" <"j_a_hurrell at hotmail com"> wrote in message
news:...
> Just wondering how others are managing file fragmentation on their
> external USB backup drives (SBS 2003)? I have two WD 500GB drives that i
> rotate weekly (each backup is around 55GB currently) but periodically the
> server will "freeze" during a backup (fans on, but no response at all) and
> requires a hard reboot to get going again.
>
> The first time it did it, i had no idea what caused it, but on subsequent
> occurrences I narrowed it down to the external hard drive itself - after
> the reboot, simply trying to access the drive via Windows Explorer on the
> server caused the server to freeze again. I transferred the drive to a
> Vista workstation and had the same problem (workstation froze). I
> initially thought the drive was broken, but I managed to reformat the
> drive in Vista and then transferred it back to the server where it worked
> absolutely fine for a couple of months until the same issue returned. I
> have also had the same issue on the other USB drive.
>
> I believe the issue is high file fragmentation on the drive itself, so I
> have been scheduling a weekly defrag to see if it helps. However, the
> defrag itself doesn't seem to work correctly. I have tried the Windows
> defrag utility, which basically made no difference at all (still highly
> fragmented after several scheduled defrags) and also JKDefrag. I ran
> JKDefrag from the command line, but after 36 hrs it was still sitting at
> the "Analyze" stage and I killed the process.
>
> Anyone had this issue before and how do you manage your backup drives? I
> guess the only other option is periodic formats...???
>
> thanks.

FWIW, the drives I am using are also 500 gig Western Digital--their cheapest
external drives--mybook? Black plastic case.
formatted NTFS.

"James Hurrell" <"j_a_hurrell at hotmail com"> wrote in message
news:...
> Hi Dave,
>
> Yes they are... with a 55GB backup file FAT32 wasn't going to cut it!
>
> Might be an issue with these particular drives I guess...
>
>
> Dave Nickason [SBS MVP] wrote:
>> Are the drives using NTFS? I've completely ignored the issue of
>> fragmentation on my external drives but have not seen any symptoms as a
>> result (although I'm sure they could stand to be defragged).

Bill Sanderson wrote:
> FWIW, the drives I am using are also 500 gig Western Digital--their
> cheapest external drives--mybook? Black plastic case.
> formatted NTFS.

Yep, these are they Bill. 500GB WD MyBook, black shiny plastic.

Thanks Cliff. It's a plausible explanation. I will check out the
firmware updates.

Cliff Galiher wrote:
> Even a heavily fragmented drive should not cause a server to freeze as
> you describe. I've even seen 100% full heavily fragmented *system*
> partitions and this doesn't occur. The server may not finish booting,
> but it'll tell you WHY.
>
> For a server to freeze, it means that the hardware is responding in some
> unexpected way. In most cases this means that the USB controller on the
> external HD that is supposed to translate from USB to ATA incorrectly
> implemented some commands. So 99% of the time you don't notice it, but
> on a drive that is more full and the OS starts attempting to squeeze
> data into the empty spaces, the USB2ATA controller throws back some
> bogus data.
>
> I'd check to see if there are any firmware updates for the hard drives,
> and replace them if necessary.
>
> -Cliff

In article <>,
says...
>
> Bill Sanderson wrote:
> > FWIW, the drives I am using are also 500 gig Western Digital--their
> > cheapest external drives--mybook? Black plastic case.
> > formatted NTFS.
>
> Yep, these are they Bill. 500GB WD MyBook, black shiny plastic.

Every MyBook drive I've ordered has died in the first year - the Seagate
ones (thin, white/silver) have lasted much longer and I've not had one
fail yet.

--
You can't trust your best friends, your five senses, only the little
voice inside you that most civilians don't even hear -- Listen to that.
Trust yourself.
(remove 999 for proper email address)

Leythos wrote:
> In article <>,
> says...
>> Bill Sanderson wrote:
>>> FWIW, the drives I am using are also 500 gig Western Digital--their
>>> cheapest external drives--mybook? Black plastic case.
>>> formatted NTFS.
>> Yep, these are they Bill. 500GB WD MyBook, black shiny plastic.
>
> Every MyBook drive I've ordered has died in the first year - the Seagate
> ones (thin, white/silver) have lasted much longer and I've not had one
> fail yet.
>
You must have bad luck. I've got 5 of these (3 at home and 2 in the
office) and all are around 3 years old used heavily.