SBS2003 R2 to SBS 2003 - to swing or not to swing....

Hi all,

I'm about to embark on some SBS2003 R2 to SBS2008 upgrades. I
previously purchased Jeff's excellent Swing Migration toolkit, and
used it for both SBS2000 to SBS2003 and SBS2003 to SBS2003 (new tin)
migrations.

I see that there's a Microsoft document on migrating SBS2003 to
SBS2008 (http://tinyurl.com/64lja3). It's migrating to new hardware
(necessary anyway, x86 to x64) and assigning a new server name.

Can anyone give me their war stories on SBS2003 R2 to SBS2008
migrations? Jeff's kit was excellent, but I'm an independent engineer
so have to pay for stuff myself, and it's $200 (and the exchange rate
was better then too!). Without wishing to encroach on Jeff's
intellectual property, can anyone tell me the rough concepts of the
2003 to 2008 swing routine that Jeff uses? Is it via TempDC again? The
Microsoft document is 80-odd pages, my SwingIt kit was hundreds.

Thanks in advance for comments. And if Jeff is able to pitch in as
well, that would be great. I'm happy to re-purchase the kit IF it
makes sense, but $200 is a lot when I only get paid £200 for a
migration. What are the real selling points of doing it Jeff's way?



Jim

There are lots of others here who can speak to the swing migration
questions.

I've done a single very-well-used SBS 2003 (not R2) to 2008 server upgrade
via the Microsoft document, and I can say that it can be done, without too
much lost sleep or hair, by a not overly experienced admin who reads the
docs and follows all the suggestions in them and in some forum posts
carefully--with a clean result in terms of BPA runs after.

So--it definitely isn't for the faint-hearted, but it can be done, and, in
my case at least, the users professed to noticing very little if any
disruption over the course of the migration. (30 users - migration really
did take me the whole 21 days, but I was slow on some legacy stuff that was
left on the old server.)

"Jim" <> wrote in message
news:...
> Hi all,
>
> I'm about to embark on some SBS2003 R2 to SBS2008 upgrades. I
> previously purchased Jeff's excellent Swing Migration toolkit, and
> used it for both SBS2000 to SBS2003 and SBS2003 to SBS2003 (new tin)
> migrations.
>
> I see that there's a Microsoft document on migrating SBS2003 to
> SBS2008 (http://tinyurl.com/64lja3). It's migrating to new hardware
> (necessary anyway, x86 to x64) and assigning a new server name.
>
> Can anyone give me their war stories on SBS2003 R2 to SBS2008
> migrations? Jeff's kit was excellent, but I'm an independent engineer
> so have to pay for stuff myself, and it's $200 (and the exchange rate
> was better then too!). Without wishing to encroach on Jeff's
> intellectual property, can anyone tell me the rough concepts of the
> 2003 to 2008 swing routine that Jeff uses? Is it via TempDC again? The
> Microsoft document is 80-odd pages, my SwingIt kit was hundreds.
>
> Thanks in advance for comments. And if Jeff is able to pitch in as
> well, that would be great. I'm happy to re-purchase the kit IF it
> makes sense, but $200 is a lot when I only get paid £200 for a
> migration. What are the real selling points of doing it Jeff's way?
>
>
>
> Jim

Jim wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I'm about to embark on some SBS2003 R2 to SBS2008 upgrades. I
> previously purchased Jeff's excellent Swing Migration toolkit, and
> used it for both SBS2000 to SBS2003 and SBS2003 to SBS2003 (new tin)
> migrations.
>
> I see that there's a Microsoft document on migrating SBS2003 to
> SBS2008 (http://tinyurl.com/64lja3). It's migrating to new hardware
> (necessary anyway, x86 to x64) and assigning a new server name.
>
> Can anyone give me their war stories on SBS2003 R2 to SBS2008
> migrations? Jeff's kit was excellent, but I'm an independent engineer
> so have to pay for stuff myself, and it's $200 (and the exchange rate
> was better then too!). Without wishing to encroach on Jeff's
> intellectual property, can anyone tell me the rough concepts of the
> 2003 to 2008 swing routine that Jeff uses? Is it via TempDC again? The
> Microsoft document is 80-odd pages, my SwingIt kit was hundreds.
>
> Thanks in advance for comments. And if Jeff is able to pitch in as
> well, that would be great. I'm happy to re-purchase the kit IF it
> makes sense, but $200 is a lot when I only get paid £200 for a
> migration. What are the real selling points of doing it Jeff's way?
>
>
>
> Jim
If you are only getting paid 200 pounds for a migration, dude, you are
vastly under billing. Most migrations JeffM or otherwise are 20 hours
or more depending on the timing of the exchange data move.

yes there's a temp DC again.


Both work, the MS way you need to ensure that the AD is clean going in.

Jeff's way leave the SBS 2003 box intact so that you have a straight
roll back plan. But both ways are going to be more than 200 pounds of
time to do a migration.

I did the MS way and I kept myself with a back door because I used the
Sysinternals DisktoVHD tool to make an exact copy of my SBS 2003 should
something go wrong.

MS way you have to get the AD to clean.

JeffM way you build a server that gets to that clean AD state.

IMHO it more depends on how confident you are in the state of that AD.

On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 17:30:20 -0800, Susan Bradley
<> wrote:

>Jim wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'm about to embark on some SBS2003 R2 to SBS2008 upgrades. I
>> previously purchased Jeff's excellent Swing Migration toolkit, and
>> used it for both SBS2000 to SBS2003 and SBS2003 to SBS2003 (new tin)
>> migrations.
>>
>> I see that there's a Microsoft document on migrating SBS2003 to
>> SBS2008 (http://tinyurl.com/64lja3). It's migrating to new hardware
>> (necessary anyway, x86 to x64) and assigning a new server name.
>>
>> Can anyone give me their war stories on SBS2003 R2 to SBS2008
>> migrations? Jeff's kit was excellent, but I'm an independent engineer
>> so have to pay for stuff myself, and it's $200 (and the exchange rate
>> was better then too!). Without wishing to encroach on Jeff's
>> intellectual property, can anyone tell me the rough concepts of the
>> 2003 to 2008 swing routine that Jeff uses? Is it via TempDC again? The
>> Microsoft document is 80-odd pages, my SwingIt kit was hundreds.
>>
>> Thanks in advance for comments. And if Jeff is able to pitch in as
>> well, that would be great. I'm happy to re-purchase the kit IF it
>> makes sense, but $200 is a lot when I only get paid £200 for a
>> migration. What are the real selling points of doing it Jeff's way?
>>
>>
>>
>> Jim
>If you are only getting paid 200 pounds for a migration, dude, you are
>vastly under billing. Most migrations JeffM or otherwise are 20 hours
>or more depending on the timing of the exchange data move.
>
>yes there's a temp DC again.
>
>
>Both work, the MS way you need to ensure that the AD is clean going in.
>
>Jeff's way leave the SBS 2003 box intact so that you have a straight
>roll back plan. But both ways are going to be more than 200 pounds of
>time to do a migration.
>
>I did the MS way and I kept myself with a back door because I used the
>Sysinternals DisktoVHD tool to make an exact copy of my SBS 2003 should
>something go wrong.
>
>MS way you have to get the AD to clean.
>
>JeffM way you build a server that gets to that clean AD state.
>
>IMHO it more depends on how confident you are in the state of that AD.

Thanks Susan and Bill.

I'm pretty sure the AD is clean. One server is an original SBS2003 R2
install, the other is an SBS 2003 R2 install that was created via
Swing from an existing SBS 2003 R2 install (we'd outgrown the
hardware).

Jeff's original kit that I purchased was excellent, and I've no qualms
about re-purchasing it for 2003>2008 IF it's worthwhile. Back then
there was no Microsoft way of doing it, no answer file, etc. But now
there is, hence my concerns about buying something that isn't a
necessity.

As for the ££££ it's a family friend who owns lots of local
businesses, hence the low £££.

Hmm.......





Jim

Jim wrote:
> On Sat, 28 Nov 2009 17:30:20 -0800, Susan Bradley
> <> wrote:
>
>> Jim wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I'm about to embark on some SBS2003 R2 to SBS2008 upgrades. I
>>> previously purchased Jeff's excellent Swing Migration toolkit, and
>>> used it for both SBS2000 to SBS2003 and SBS2003 to SBS2003 (new tin)
>>> migrations.
>>>
>>> I see that there's a Microsoft document on migrating SBS2003 to
>>> SBS2008 (http://tinyurl.com/64lja3). It's migrating to new hardware
>>> (necessary anyway, x86 to x64) and assigning a new server name.
>>>
>>> Can anyone give me their war stories on SBS2003 R2 to SBS2008
>>> migrations? Jeff's kit was excellent, but I'm an independent engineer
>>> so have to pay for stuff myself, and it's $200 (and the exchange rate
>>> was better then too!). Without wishing to encroach on Jeff's
>>> intellectual property, can anyone tell me the rough concepts of the
>>> 2003 to 2008 swing routine that Jeff uses? Is it via TempDC again? The
>>> Microsoft document is 80-odd pages, my SwingIt kit was hundreds.
>>>
>>> Thanks in advance for comments. And if Jeff is able to pitch in as
>>> well, that would be great. I'm happy to re-purchase the kit IF it
>>> makes sense, but $200 is a lot when I only get paid £200 for a
>>> migration. What are the real selling points of doing it Jeff's way?
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Jim
>> If you are only getting paid 200 pounds for a migration, dude, you are
>> vastly under billing. Most migrations JeffM or otherwise are 20 hours
>> or more depending on the timing of the exchange data move.
>>
>> yes there's a temp DC again.
>>
>>
>> Both work, the MS way you need to ensure that the AD is clean going in.
>>
>> Jeff's way leave the SBS 2003 box intact so that you have a straight
>> roll back plan. But both ways are going to be more than 200 pounds of
>> time to do a migration.
>>
>> I did the MS way and I kept myself with a back door because I used the
>> Sysinternals DisktoVHD tool to make an exact copy of my SBS 2003 should
>> something go wrong.
>>
>> MS way you have to get the AD to clean.
>>
>> JeffM way you build a server that gets to that clean AD state.
>>
>> IMHO it more depends on how confident you are in the state of that AD.
>
> Thanks Susan and Bill.
>
> I'm pretty sure the AD is clean. One server is an original SBS2003 R2
> install, the other is an SBS 2003 R2 install that was created via
> Swing from an existing SBS 2003 R2 install (we'd outgrown the
> hardware).
>
> Jeff's original kit that I purchased was excellent, and I've no qualms
> about re-purchasing it for 2003>2008 IF it's worthwhile. Back then
> there was no Microsoft way of doing it, no answer file, etc. But now
> there is, hence my concerns about buying something that isn't a
> necessity.
>
> As for the ££££ it's a family friend who owns lots of local
> businesses, hence the low £££.
>
> Hmm.......
>
>
>
>
>
> Jim

And is he doing well in his business?

Have him buy JeffM's kit.

Seriously I did an entire dry run of the SBS 2003 to SBS 2008 migration
(see the categories of migration and migration extras at
www.msmvps.com/blogs/bradley ) and it certainly was worth more than 200
pounds of my time.

Jim, here's my take:

The MS documentation is a perfectly serviceable migration path, but it does
have drawbacks. These aren't secrets, and I think the swing website speaks
for itself, but here is the quick summary.

The MS path has no support. You use the documentation and you push through.
Acceptable for an experienced migrator, but support is worth money. The
swing kit comes with support.

The swing kit is a drop and replace model, the MS is an upgrade-style model.
Which you use may very well be dictated by resources available to you.

The MS path is free. The Swing version is not. Obviously.

Now, on to a few finer points that aren't really pros or cons, but are
things you may not have considered.

A swing kit may cost as much as you are getting paid, but the knowledge you
gain can be reused and reapplied to other scenarios. That may be worth it.

$200, as Susan pointed out, is ridiculously low for a migration, even for a
friend.

Your friend owns "many" local businesses? One can assume that to own more
than one means that he is somewhat successful. HE should be willing to
invest in his business, and you should be able to charge a reasonable rate.
There is a friend discount, and then there is letting yourself be taken
advantage of.

Many of my clients are my clients because they were friends first. When it
came time for them to decide who to use, they chose me. And they pay me for
my services. The gentleman that owns the bar that I installed the
point-of-sales system? He doesn't give me free booze, so why should I give
him free service? My friend that owns the hardware store doesn't give me a
$500 band saw for $200. He may give it to me at cost ($450?) but that's the
best I'd get, so I charge him similarly. A good friend discount, but not
selling the farm for it.

In short you'd be a patron of a friends' business because you respect the
friend and he does good business. He should be willing to return the favor
and patron your business because you are good at it, not because you beat
everybody else's prices by thousands.

But I digress. I suppose you don't need someone preaching to you about how
to run your business. So take the above as just some advice from a
long-time small business advocate, nothing more. I'll get down from my soap
box now.

-Cliff



"Jim" <> wrote in message
news:...
> Hi all,
>
> I'm about to embark on some SBS2003 R2 to SBS2008 upgrades. I
> previously purchased Jeff's excellent Swing Migration toolkit, and
> used it for both SBS2000 to SBS2003 and SBS2003 to SBS2003 (new tin)
> migrations.
>
> I see that there's a Microsoft document on migrating SBS2003 to
> SBS2008 (http://tinyurl.com/64lja3). It's migrating to new hardware
> (necessary anyway, x86 to x64) and assigning a new server name.
>
> Can anyone give me their war stories on SBS2003 R2 to SBS2008
> migrations? Jeff's kit was excellent, but I'm an independent engineer
> so have to pay for stuff myself, and it's $200 (and the exchange rate
> was better then too!). Without wishing to encroach on Jeff's
> intellectual property, can anyone tell me the rough concepts of the
> 2003 to 2008 swing routine that Jeff uses? Is it via TempDC again? The
> Microsoft document is 80-odd pages, my SwingIt kit was hundreds.
>
> Thanks in advance for comments. And if Jeff is able to pitch in as
> well, that would be great. I'm happy to re-purchase the kit IF it
> makes sense, but $200 is a lot when I only get paid £200 for a
> migration. What are the real selling points of doing it Jeff's way?
>
>
>
> Jim

Hi Cliff,

Some very valid points, thank you.

When i bought the 2000 to 2003 Swing kit I paid for it myself, and
didn't really ned any support - one email to Jeff, at which point he
sent me a much later (and much more accurate) PDF than I'd been able
to download at time of purchase. But I've then used it for half a
dozen migrations since then.

I don't anticipate needing support. Google is a great resource, and
timezones aren't a problem either. BUT I did find Jeff's kit to be
superb, and I have no reason to think that the 2003 to 2008 kit will
be any different. Besides, I suspect there will more migrations on
the way......


Thanks all. Looks like I'll be buying the kit again.



Jim


On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 04:02:53 -0700, "Cliff Galiher"
<> wrote:

>Jim, here's my take:
>
>The MS documentation is a perfectly serviceable migration path, but it does
>have drawbacks. These aren't secrets, and I think the swing website speaks
>for itself, but here is the quick summary.
>
>The MS path has no support. You use the documentation and you push through.
>Acceptable for an experienced migrator, but support is worth money. The
>swing kit comes with support.
>
>The swing kit is a drop and replace model, the MS is an upgrade-style model.
>Which you use may very well be dictated by resources available to you.
>
>The MS path is free. The Swing version is not. Obviously.
>
>Now, on to a few finer points that aren't really pros or cons, but are
>things you may not have considered.
>
>A swing kit may cost as much as you are getting paid, but the knowledge you
>gain can be reused and reapplied to other scenarios. That may be worth it.
>
>$200, as Susan pointed out, is ridiculously low for a migration, even for a
>friend.
>
>Your friend owns "many" local businesses? One can assume that to own more
>than one means that he is somewhat successful. HE should be willing to
>invest in his business, and you should be able to charge a reasonable rate.
>There is a friend discount, and then there is letting yourself be taken
>advantage of.
>
>Many of my clients are my clients because they were friends first. When it
>came time for them to decide who to use, they chose me. And they pay me for
>my services. The gentleman that owns the bar that I installed the
>point-of-sales system? He doesn't give me free booze, so why should I give
>him free service? My friend that owns the hardware store doesn't give me a
>$500 band saw for $200. He may give it to me at cost ($450?) but that's the
>best I'd get, so I charge him similarly. A good friend discount, but not
>selling the farm for it.
>
>In short you'd be a patron of a friends' business because you respect the
>friend and he does good business. He should be willing to return the favor
>and patron your business because you are good at it, not because you beat
>everybody else's prices by thousands.
>
>But I digress. I suppose you don't need someone preaching to you about how
>to run your business. So take the above as just some advice from a
>long-time small business advocate, nothing more. I'll get down from my soap
>box now.
>
>-Cliff
>
>
>
>"Jim" <> wrote in message
>news:.. .
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I'm about to embark on some SBS2003 R2 to SBS2008 upgrades. I
>> previously purchased Jeff's excellent Swing Migration toolkit, and
>> used it for both SBS2000 to SBS2003 and SBS2003 to SBS2003 (new tin)
>> migrations.
>>
>> I see that there's a Microsoft document on migrating SBS2003 to
>> SBS2008 (http://tinyurl.com/64lja3). It's migrating to new hardware
>> (necessary anyway, x86 to x64) and assigning a new server name.
>>
>> Can anyone give me their war stories on SBS2003 R2 to SBS2008
>> migrations? Jeff's kit was excellent, but I'm an independent engineer
>> so have to pay for stuff myself, and it's $200 (and the exchange rate
>> was better then too!). Without wishing to encroach on Jeff's
>> intellectual property, can anyone tell me the rough concepts of the
>> 2003 to 2008 swing routine that Jeff uses? Is it via TempDC again? The
>> Microsoft document is 80-odd pages, my SwingIt kit was hundreds.
>>
>> Thanks in advance for comments. And if Jeff is able to pitch in as
>> well, that would be great. I'm happy to re-purchase the kit IF it
>> makes sense, but $200 is a lot when I only get paid £200 for a
>> migration. What are the real selling points of doing it Jeff's way?
>>
>>
>>
>> Jim

In article <>,
says...
> $200, as Susan pointed out, is ridiculously low for a migration, even for a
> friend.
>

That's almost funny, $200 for a migration. We charge between $2,000 and
$3,000 for migrations from 03 to 08 and most consider that cheap.

--
You can't trust your best friends, your five senses, only the little
voice inside you that most civilians don't even hear -- Listen to that.
Trust yourself.
(remove 999 for proper email address)

On 2009-11-29 15:14:01 +0000, Leythos <> said:

> In article <>,
> says...
>> $200, as Susan pointed out, is ridiculously low for a migration, even for a
>> friend.
>>
>
> That's almost funny, $200 for a migration. We charge between $2,000 and
> $3,000 for migrations from 03 to 08 and most consider that cheap.

*ding*

We rolled over a 30 user site with new hardware, and charged it out at
£80 per hour, per engineer.

They were happy with that. Although we also provided 4 virtual servers,
a new TS, a new mail archiver and a Blackberry Server.

--
Gavin. MCSE, MCITP, MSTS  ACSP 10.5
http://www.stoof.co.uk
http://www.twitter.com/gavin_wilby

On Sun, 29 Nov 2009 10:14:01 -0500, Leythos <>
wrote:

>In article <>,
>says...
>> $200, as Susan pointed out, is ridiculously low for a migration, even for a
>> friend.
>>
>
>That's almost funny, $200 for a migration. We charge between $2,000 and
>$3,000 for migrations from 03 to 08 and most consider that cheap.


Guys, don't all get hung up on the price. This is a family friend and
it's a small family business employing 9 people. Small fry, nothing
major. There's just me, doing this at weekends for him.

I didn't want to start a discussion on who can extort the most £££
from a customer, I really just wanted to find out of the Swing
approach was best for 03 to 08.



Jim