SBS2008 - IMAP access to mailbox in Exchange 2007

Have a customer who has a telephone system that uses an IMAP connectionj to
the users Inbox to pick up voicemails.

Since upgrading from Exchange 2003 (SBS2003) to Exchange 2007 (SBS2008) this
has stopped working.

Users userrnames and passwords are still the same.

I've setup Outlook to make an IMAP connection to their mailbox but this
doesn't appear to work, I guess this is why their telephone can't logon
either.

I just get a box come up prompting for a username and password ??

Is their more to it in Exchange 2007 than just doing the regular Outlook
IMAP setup like we did in Exchange 2003 ?

Jim.

"Jim" <> wrote in message
news:hht3j7$31eh$...
> Have a customer who has a telephone system that uses an IMAP connectionj
> to the users Inbox to pick up voicemails.
>
> Since upgrading from Exchange 2003 (SBS2003) to Exchange 2007 (SBS2008)
> this has stopped working.
>
> Users userrnames and passwords are still the same.
>
> I've setup Outlook to make an IMAP connection to their mailbox but this
> doesn't appear to work, I guess this is why their telephone can't logon
> either.
>
> I just get a box come up prompting for a username and password ??
>
> Is their more to it in Exchange 2007 than just doing the regular Outlook
> IMAP setup like we did in Exchange 2003 ?
>
> Jim.
>
>


Is the IMAP service started and configured in the EMC?

--
Ace

This posting is provided "AS-IS" with no warranties or guarantees and
confers no rights.

Please reply back to the newsgroup or forum for collaboration benefit among
responding engineers, and to help others benefit from your resolution.

Ace Fekay, MCT, MCITP EA, MCTS Windows 2008 & Exchange 2007, MCSE & MCSA
2003/2000, MCSA Messaging 2003
Microsoft Certified Trainer

If you feel this is an urgent issue and require immediate assistance, please
contact Microsoft PSS directly. Please check http://support.microsoft.com
for regional support phone numbers.

Hi Ace,

Yes it is, but it was configured for a Secure connection, I have changed
this to Basic Authentication and now it works OK.

I don't think that the customers telephone system can handle SSL IMAP so I
think it might have to be set to Basic Authentication.

Jim.



"Ace Fekay [MCT]" <> wrote in message
news:...
>
> "Jim" <> wrote in message
> news:hht3j7$31eh$...
>> Have a customer who has a telephone system that uses an IMAP connectionj
>> to the users Inbox to pick up voicemails.
>>
>> Since upgrading from Exchange 2003 (SBS2003) to Exchange 2007 (SBS2008)
>> this has stopped working.
>>
>> Users userrnames and passwords are still the same.
>>
>> I've setup Outlook to make an IMAP connection to their mailbox but this
>> doesn't appear to work, I guess this is why their telephone can't logon
>> either.
>>
>> I just get a box come up prompting for a username and password ??
>>
>> Is their more to it in Exchange 2007 than just doing the regular Outlook
>> IMAP setup like we did in Exchange 2003 ?
>>
>> Jim.
>>
>>
>
>
> Is the IMAP service started and configured in the EMC?
>
> --
> Ace
>
> This posting is provided "AS-IS" with no warranties or guarantees and
> confers no rights.
>
> Please reply back to the newsgroup or forum for collaboration benefit
> among responding engineers, and to help others benefit from your
> resolution.
>
> Ace Fekay, MCT, MCITP EA, MCTS Windows 2008 & Exchange 2007, MCSE & MCSA
> 2003/2000, MCSA Messaging 2003
> Microsoft Certified Trainer
>
> If you feel this is an urgent issue and require immediate assistance,
> please contact Microsoft PSS directly. Please check
> http://support.microsoft.com for regional support phone numbers.
>
>

"Jim" <> wrote in message
news:hht6hn$4jv$...
> Hi Ace,
>
> Yes it is, but it was configured for a Secure connection, I have changed
> this to Basic Authentication and now it works OK.
>
> I don't think that the customers telephone system can handle SSL IMAP so I
> think it might have to be set to Basic Authentication.
>
> Jim.
>


That would have been the next thing I would have suggested. Glad to hear you
figured it out!

Cheers!

Ace

OK...I can pull the messages down using IMAP...

But if I try and reply to one I get: System Administrator -
Undeliverable.. - 550.5.7.1 Unable to relay

Jim.


"Ace Fekay [MCT]" <> wrote in message
news:#...
> "Jim" <> wrote in message
> news:hht6hn$4jv$...
>> Hi Ace,
>>
>> Yes it is, but it was configured for a Secure connection, I have changed
>> this to Basic Authentication and now it works OK.
>>
>> I don't think that the customers telephone system can handle SSL IMAP so
>> I think it might have to be set to Basic Authentication.
>>
>> Jim.
>>
>
>
> That would have been the next thing I would have suggested. Glad to hear
> you figured it out!
>
> Cheers!
>
> Ace
>

"Jim" <> wrote in message
news:hi2aqn$21qb$...
> OK...I can pull the messages down using IMAP...
>
> But if I try and reply to one I get: System Administrator -
> Undeliverable.. - 550.5.7.1 Unable to relay
>
> Jim.
>

Configure Outlook IMAP accuont or whatever client IMAP is using, to provide
credentials for the SMTP server. It's not relaying because it's not
providing the user's credentials to relay.

Ace

Hi Jim,

Thanks for your post and Ace's good suggestions.

I am with Ace that the " Unable to relay" issue is possibly caused by the incorrect IMAP authentication for the SMTP server. The following examples demonstrate how Exchange Server accepts and
relays mail by using authenticated relaying:

" An anonymous user connects to the SMTP virtual server and attempts to deliver mail to an internal user in the Exchange organization.
In this situation, the SMTP virtual server accepts the message because it is destined for an internal domain and because the user exists in Active Directory.
" An anonymous user connects to the SMTP virtual server and attempts to deliver mail to an external user in an external domain.
In this situation, the SMTP virtual server rejects the mail because it is destined for an external domain for which the Exchange server is not responsible. Because the user is not authenticated, the
SMTP virtual server does not relay this mail outside of the Exchange organization.
" A user connects to the SMTP virtual server using a Post Office Protocol (POP) or Internet Message Access Protocol (IMAP) client (for example, Microsoft Outlook? Express), authenticates,
and then attempts to send a message to a user in an external domain.
In this situation, the e-mail client connects directly to the SMTP virtual server and authenticates the user. Although the message is destined for a remote domain, the SMTP virtual server accepts and
relays this mail because the user is authenticated

To resolve this issue, configure Outlook Express to send authentication credentials:
1. On the Tools menu, click Accounts.
2. Click the current user account.
3. Click Properties.
4. Click the Servers tab.
5. Under Outgoing Mail Server, click to select the My server requires authentication check box.
6. Click Settings.
7. In the Logon Information dialog box, select one of the three following options:
o Use same setting as my Incoming Mail server. The authentication credentials in the Incoming Mail Server option.
o Log on using. Type the user account and password of the current user.
o Log on using Secure Password Authentication. An authentication credential is displayed every time a message is sent.
8. Click OK until the Internet dialog box appears, and then click Close.

In addition, here are some articles you may refer to configure your SMTP server authentication so that it can relay for IMAP client.

Prevent anonymous access on internal SMTP virtual servers and dedicated SMTP virtual servers for IMAP and POP clients.
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/l...EXCHG.65).aspx

Setting Relay Restrictions
http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/l...EXCHG.65).aspx

550 5.7.1 Unable to relay for
http://social.technet.microsoft.com/...8-1e264f218aa1

Hope this helps.



Best regards,
Robbin Meng(MSFT)
Microsoft Online Newsgroup Support

================================================== ================
Please post your SBS 2008 related questions to the SBS newsgroup on Connect website:
https://connect.microsoft.com/sbs08/...i/default.aspx

Please post your EBS related questions to the EBS newsgroup on Connect website:
https://connect.microsoft.com/ebs08/...i/default.aspx

If you want to use a newsreader other than a web forum to access these newsgroups,
please refer to the following blog to apply NNTP password and configure a newsreader:
http://msmvps.com/blogs/bradley/arch...ewsgroups.aspx
================================================== ================
When responding to posts, please "Reply to Group" via your newsreader so
that others may learn and benefit from your issue.
================================================== ================
This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
================================================== ================

Hi Guys,

Already tried lots of this already....though I'll go through it all again in
case I've missed something..

Main purpose for thisis that the customer has an IP PBX telephone system
that the voicemail uses IMAP to get voicemail messages from Exchange.

Worked perfectly with Exchange 2003.

Customer has upgraded to Exchange 2007...now we're having all sorts of
problems.

So I thought let's start off with seeing whether I can use IMAP from a
simple Outlook client...and I couldn't. So I though until we get this
working then the telephone PBX most likely ain't going to work.

Now we have changed the authentication to basic for IMAP on Exchange 2007 I
can logon from Outlook client and see messages but not send any replies.

Just get the unable to relay message. Have tried all the SMTP authentication
stuff on the Outlook client but sill won't work.

The telephone PBX can now logon also.. as opposed to saying that it cannot,
..but it now says that there are no new voicemails...when there actually
are..

We think that the Outlook clients inability to send via IMAP might be
related to this.

I'll go over it again.

Jim.


""Robbin Meng [MSFT]"" <v-> wrote in message
news:...
>
> Hi Jim,
>
> Thanks for your post and Ace's good suggestions.
>
> I am with Ace that the " Unable to relay" issue is possibly caused by the
> incorrect IMAP authentication for the SMTP server. The following examples
> demonstrate how Exchange Server accepts and
> relays mail by using authenticated relaying:
>
> " An anonymous user connects to the SMTP virtual server and attempts to
> deliver mail to an internal user in the Exchange organization.
> In this situation, the SMTP virtual server accepts the message because it
> is destined for an internal domain and because the user exists in Active
> Directory.
> " An anonymous user connects to the SMTP virtual server and attempts to
> deliver mail to an external user in an external domain.
> In this situation, the SMTP virtual server rejects the mail because it is
> destined for an external domain for which the Exchange server is not
> responsible. Because the user is not authenticated, the
> SMTP virtual server does not relay this mail outside of the Exchange
> organization.
> " A user connects to the SMTP virtual server using a Post Office Protocol
> (POP) or Internet Message Access Protocol (IMAP) client (for example,
> Microsoft Outlook? Express), authenticates,
> and then attempts to send a message to a user in an external domain.
> In this situation, the e-mail client connects directly to the SMTP virtual
> server and authenticates the user. Although the message is destined for a
> remote domain, the SMTP virtual server accepts and
> relays this mail because the user is authenticated
>
> To resolve this issue, configure Outlook Express to send authentication
> credentials:
> 1. On the Tools menu, click Accounts.
> 2. Click the current user account.
> 3. Click Properties.
> 4. Click the Servers tab.
> 5. Under Outgoing Mail Server, click to select the My server requires
> authentication check box.
> 6. Click Settings.
> 7. In the Logon Information dialog box, select one of the three following
> options:
> o Use same setting as my Incoming Mail server. The authentication
> credentials in the Incoming Mail Server option.
> o Log on using. Type the user account and password of the current user.
> o Log on using Secure Password Authentication. An authentication
> credential is displayed every time a message is sent.
> 8. Click OK until the Internet dialog box appears, and then click Close.
>
> In addition, here are some articles you may refer to configure your SMTP
> server authentication so that it can relay for IMAP client.
>
> Prevent anonymous access on internal SMTP virtual servers and dedicated
> SMTP virtual servers for IMAP and POP clients.
> http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/l...EXCHG.65).aspx
>
> Setting Relay Restrictions
> http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/l...EXCHG.65).aspx
>
> 550 5.7.1 Unable to relay for
> http://social.technet.microsoft.com/...8-1e264f218aa1
>
> Hope this helps.
>
>
>
> Best regards,
> Robbin Meng(MSFT)
> Microsoft Online Newsgroup Support
>
> ================================================== ================
> Please post your SBS 2008 related questions to the SBS newsgroup on
> Connect website:
> https://connect.microsoft.com/sbs08/...i/default.aspx
>
> Please post your EBS related questions to the EBS newsgroup on Connect
> website:
> https://connect.microsoft.com/ebs08/...i/default.aspx
>
> If you want to use a newsreader other than a web forum to access these
> newsgroups,
> please refer to the following blog to apply NNTP password and configure a
> newsreader:
> http://msmvps.com/blogs/bradley/arch...ewsgroups.aspx
> ================================================== ================
> When responding to posts, please "Reply to Group" via your newsreader so
> that others may learn and benefit from your issue.
> ================================================== ================
> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
> rights.
> ================================================== ================
>
>
>

Hmmm..

I find that I *can* reply to IMAP mesages on my test SBS2008 server...work
on mine no problem.

Though I am using Outlook 2007 on my test PC on my test rig as opposed to
Outlook 2003 at the customer site..would this be relevant ?

I've compared the settings on my server to the customers server and the only
difference that I could see was that in the EMC in Server Configuration /
Client Access / POP3 and IMAP4 / Authentication tab the customers has
'Sites' as the X.509 certificate name.

...mine had the fqdn of my test server.. etc: SERVER.domain.local

I changed this to the fqdn of the customers server and restarted IMAP4
service...didn't seem to make any difference is this relevant.

Apart from that everything else look identical...can't see where the
difference is.. ??

I've not restarted Information Store on customer server as not ideal time to
do this, could try that later..

Jim.


"Jim" <> wrote in message
news:hi4c7q$25uq$...
> Hi Guys,
>
> Already tried lots of this already....though I'll go through it all again
> in case I've missed something..
>
> Main purpose for thisis that the customer has an IP PBX telephone system
> that the voicemail uses IMAP to get voicemail messages from Exchange.
>
> Worked perfectly with Exchange 2003.
>
> Customer has upgraded to Exchange 2007...now we're having all sorts of
> problems.
>
> So I thought let's start off with seeing whether I can use IMAP from a
> simple Outlook client...and I couldn't. So I though until we get this
> working then the telephone PBX most likely ain't going to work.
>
> Now we have changed the authentication to basic for IMAP on Exchange 2007
> I can logon from Outlook client and see messages but not send any replies.
>
> Just get the unable to relay message. Have tried all the SMTP
> authentication stuff on the Outlook client but sill won't work.
>
> The telephone PBX can now logon also.. as opposed to saying that it
> cannot, .but it now says that there are no new voicemails...when there
> actually are..
>
> We think that the Outlook clients inability to send via IMAP might be
> related to this.
>
> I'll go over it again.
>
> Jim.
>
>
> ""Robbin Meng [MSFT]"" <v-> wrote in message
> news:...
>>
>> Hi Jim,
>>
>> Thanks for your post and Ace's good suggestions.
>>
>> I am with Ace that the " Unable to relay" issue is possibly caused by the
>> incorrect IMAP authentication for the SMTP server. The following examples
>> demonstrate how Exchange Server accepts and
>> relays mail by using authenticated relaying:
>>
>> " An anonymous user connects to the SMTP virtual server and attempts to
>> deliver mail to an internal user in the Exchange organization.
>> In this situation, the SMTP virtual server accepts the message because it
>> is destined for an internal domain and because the user exists in Active
>> Directory.
>> " An anonymous user connects to the SMTP virtual server and attempts to
>> deliver mail to an external user in an external domain.
>> In this situation, the SMTP virtual server rejects the mail because it is
>> destined for an external domain for which the Exchange server is not
>> responsible. Because the user is not authenticated, the
>> SMTP virtual server does not relay this mail outside of the Exchange
>> organization.
>> " A user connects to the SMTP virtual server using a Post Office Protocol
>> (POP) or Internet Message Access Protocol (IMAP) client (for example,
>> Microsoft Outlook? Express), authenticates,
>> and then attempts to send a message to a user in an external domain.
>> In this situation, the e-mail client connects directly to the SMTP
>> virtual server and authenticates the user. Although the message is
>> destined for a remote domain, the SMTP virtual server accepts and
>> relays this mail because the user is authenticated
>>
>> To resolve this issue, configure Outlook Express to send authentication
>> credentials:
>> 1. On the Tools menu, click Accounts.
>> 2. Click the current user account.
>> 3. Click Properties.
>> 4. Click the Servers tab.
>> 5. Under Outgoing Mail Server, click to select the My server requires
>> authentication check box.
>> 6. Click Settings.
>> 7. In the Logon Information dialog box, select one of the three following
>> options:
>> o Use same setting as my Incoming Mail server. The authentication
>> credentials in the Incoming Mail Server option.
>> o Log on using. Type the user account and password of the current user.
>> o Log on using Secure Password Authentication. An authentication
>> credential is displayed every time a message is sent.
>> 8. Click OK until the Internet dialog box appears, and then click Close.
>>
>> In addition, here are some articles you may refer to configure your SMTP
>> server authentication so that it can relay for IMAP client.
>>
>> Prevent anonymous access on internal SMTP virtual servers and dedicated
>> SMTP virtual servers for IMAP and POP clients.
>> http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/l...EXCHG.65).aspx
>>
>> Setting Relay Restrictions
>> http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/l...EXCHG.65).aspx
>>
>> 550 5.7.1 Unable to relay for
>> http://social.technet.microsoft.com/...8-1e264f218aa1
>>
>> Hope this helps.
>>
>>
>>
>> Best regards,
>> Robbin Meng(MSFT)
>> Microsoft Online Newsgroup Support
>>
>> ================================================== ================
>> Please post your SBS 2008 related questions to the SBS newsgroup on
>> Connect website:
>> https://connect.microsoft.com/sbs08/...i/default.aspx
>>
>> Please post your EBS related questions to the EBS newsgroup on Connect
>> website:
>> https://connect.microsoft.com/ebs08/...i/default.aspx
>>
>> If you want to use a newsreader other than a web forum to access these
>> newsgroups,
>> please refer to the following blog to apply NNTP password and configure a
>> newsreader:
>> http://msmvps.com/blogs/bradley/arch...ewsgroups.aspx
>> ================================================== ================
>> When responding to posts, please "Reply to Group" via your newsreader so
>> that others may learn and benefit from your issue.
>> ================================================== ================
>> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
>> rights.
>> ================================================== ================
>>
>>
>>

....found another difference as well..

The customers 'Accepted Domains' had domain.co.uk as the Default (True)

My test rig has domain.local as the Default (True) , as does several other
SBS2008 servers which I have checked.

I've changed theirs to domain.local as the Default (True) now...still didn't
make any difference but have not yet restarted any Exchange services.

Their server was an SBS2003 to SBS2008 SwingIT Migration..

Jim.


"Jim" <> wrote in message
news:hi4g95$2cb5$...
> Hmmm..
>
> I find that I *can* reply to IMAP mesages on my test SBS2008 server...work
> on mine no problem.
>
> Though I am using Outlook 2007 on my test PC on my test rig as opposed to
> Outlook 2003 at the customer site..would this be relevant ?
>
> I've compared the settings on my server to the customers server and the
> only difference that I could see was that in the EMC in Server
> Configuration / Client Access / POP3 and IMAP4 / Authentication tab the
> customers has 'Sites' as the X.509 certificate name.
>
> ..mine had the fqdn of my test server.. etc: SERVER.domain.local
>
> I changed this to the fqdn of the customers server and restarted IMAP4
> service...didn't seem to make any difference is this relevant.
>
> Apart from that everything else look identical...can't see where the
> difference is.. ??
>
> I've not restarted Information Store on customer server as not ideal time
> to do this, could try that later..
>
> Jim.
>
>
> "Jim" <> wrote in message
> news:hi4c7q$25uq$...
>> Hi Guys,
>>
>> Already tried lots of this already....though I'll go through it all again
>> in case I've missed something..
>>
>> Main purpose for thisis that the customer has an IP PBX telephone system
>> that the voicemail uses IMAP to get voicemail messages from Exchange.
>>
>> Worked perfectly with Exchange 2003.
>>
>> Customer has upgraded to Exchange 2007...now we're having all sorts of
>> problems.
>>
>> So I thought let's start off with seeing whether I can use IMAP from a
>> simple Outlook client...and I couldn't. So I though until we get this
>> working then the telephone PBX most likely ain't going to work.
>>
>> Now we have changed the authentication to basic for IMAP on Exchange 2007
>> I can logon from Outlook client and see messages but not send any
>> replies.
>>
>> Just get the unable to relay message. Have tried all the SMTP
>> authentication stuff on the Outlook client but sill won't work.
>>
>> The telephone PBX can now logon also.. as opposed to saying that it
>> cannot, .but it now says that there are no new voicemails...when there
>> actually are..
>>
>> We think that the Outlook clients inability to send via IMAP might be
>> related to this.
>>
>> I'll go over it again.
>>
>> Jim.
>>
>>
>> ""Robbin Meng [MSFT]"" <v-> wrote in message
>> news:...
>>>
>>> Hi Jim,
>>>
>>> Thanks for your post and Ace's good suggestions.
>>>
>>> I am with Ace that the " Unable to relay" issue is possibly caused by
>>> the incorrect IMAP authentication for the SMTP server. The following
>>> examples demonstrate how Exchange Server accepts and
>>> relays mail by using authenticated relaying:
>>>
>>> " An anonymous user connects to the SMTP virtual server and attempts to
>>> deliver mail to an internal user in the Exchange organization.
>>> In this situation, the SMTP virtual server accepts the message because
>>> it is destined for an internal domain and because the user exists in
>>> Active Directory.
>>> " An anonymous user connects to the SMTP virtual server and attempts to
>>> deliver mail to an external user in an external domain.
>>> In this situation, the SMTP virtual server rejects the mail because it
>>> is destined for an external domain for which the Exchange server is not
>>> responsible. Because the user is not authenticated, the
>>> SMTP virtual server does not relay this mail outside of the Exchange
>>> organization.
>>> " A user connects to the SMTP virtual server using a Post Office
>>> Protocol (POP) or Internet Message Access Protocol (IMAP) client (for
>>> example, Microsoft Outlook? Express), authenticates,
>>> and then attempts to send a message to a user in an external domain.
>>> In this situation, the e-mail client connects directly to the SMTP
>>> virtual server and authenticates the user. Although the message is
>>> destined for a remote domain, the SMTP virtual server accepts and
>>> relays this mail because the user is authenticated
>>>
>>> To resolve this issue, configure Outlook Express to send authentication
>>> credentials:
>>> 1. On the Tools menu, click Accounts.
>>> 2. Click the current user account.
>>> 3. Click Properties.
>>> 4. Click the Servers tab.
>>> 5. Under Outgoing Mail Server, click to select the My server requires
>>> authentication check box.
>>> 6. Click Settings.
>>> 7. In the Logon Information dialog box, select one of the three
>>> following options:
>>> o Use same setting as my Incoming Mail server. The authentication
>>> credentials in the Incoming Mail Server option.
>>> o Log on using. Type the user account and password of the current user.
>>> o Log on using Secure Password Authentication. An authentication
>>> credential is displayed every time a message is sent.
>>> 8. Click OK until the Internet dialog box appears, and then click Close.
>>>
>>> In addition, here are some articles you may refer to configure your SMTP
>>> server authentication so that it can relay for IMAP client.
>>>
>>> Prevent anonymous access on internal SMTP virtual servers and dedicated
>>> SMTP virtual servers for IMAP and POP clients.
>>> http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/l...EXCHG.65).aspx
>>>
>>> Setting Relay Restrictions
>>> http://technet.microsoft.com/en-us/l...EXCHG.65).aspx
>>>
>>> 550 5.7.1 Unable to relay for
>>> http://social.technet.microsoft.com/...8-1e264f218aa1
>>>
>>> Hope this helps.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> Best regards,
>>> Robbin Meng(MSFT)
>>> Microsoft Online Newsgroup Support
>>>
>>> ================================================== ================
>>> Please post your SBS 2008 related questions to the SBS newsgroup on
>>> Connect website:
>>> https://connect.microsoft.com/sbs08/...i/default.aspx
>>>
>>> Please post your EBS related questions to the EBS newsgroup on Connect
>>> website:
>>> https://connect.microsoft.com/ebs08/...i/default.aspx
>>>
>>> If you want to use a newsreader other than a web forum to access these
>>> newsgroups,
>>> please refer to the following blog to apply NNTP password and configure
>>> a newsreader:
>>> http://msmvps.com/blogs/bradley/arch...ewsgroups.aspx
>>> ================================================== ================
>>> When responding to posts, please "Reply to Group" via your newsreader so
>>> that others may learn and benefit from your issue.
>>> ================================================== ================
>>> This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no
>>> rights.
>>> ================================================== ================
>>>
>>>
>>>