Shutdown/update problem?

Before I found this group, I asked the following question on
microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics and got a little advice. I'd be
grateful if anyone here can suggest how I can find out what happened.
I first posted:

> XP Pro, SP2; a new machine not yet fully patched.

> On a recent shutdown when I clicked on Start->TurnOff, the next choice
> mentioned something like "Turn Off and apply updates" rather than just
> "Turn Off". I chose it and what looked like a normal shutdown then
> proceeded. I got the blue display that tells you Windows is logging
> off, shutting down etc, and it said:

> Applying update 1 of 56

> and Do not turn off....

> alternating. Twelve hours later that was still the situation, and I
> did turn the machine off. On the next boot it clearly didn't start
> cleanly; I got continuous eggtimer whenever the pointer went near the
> task bar (so couldn't click on Start for example), but right-click on
> the backdrop worked. I switched it off again. On the next boot the
> machine started cleanly and has appeared fine ever since.

> What happened?

"Frank Saunders, MS-MVP OE/WM" replied saying:

> You turned the machine off during the install of an update. Therefore
> you broke whatever it was installing. You were extremely lucky that
> Windows managed to heal itself.

which wasn't helpful; I replied to that with:

> > You turned the machine off during the install of an update.

> Did I really? What update is there that would take 12 hours to get
> nowhere (on a 1.8Ghz machine)? Not even as far as update 2 or 3 or 40
> out of 56, or whatever?

> Will what the machine thought it was doing be logged anywhere? I'd
> certainly like to see some evidence that something was going on.

> As I'm new to this I don't know what to expect. When I've had bits
> of updates download and install when Windows is running I've seen
> progress information in a dialog box on screen, eg downloading update
> xxx part 1 of 3 ... etc, then installing part 1 of 3 ... - and each
> part of that only takes a few seconds or minutes to update. Why is
> there no continuously updated display when the stuff running at
> shutdown is executing, if that's normal?

> After 12 hours of no progress at all I decided the thing was stuck.
> Is there any way I could have got info on what it was doing, at that
> point?

> How long should I have waited?


> I read in another thread someone's comment that AV software shouldn't
> be allowed to run while updates are being applied. It's not obvious
> to me at what point in an update process one would manually disable
> one's AV software. I have WindowsUpdate set to download but not
> install stuff; however when the small WU icon appears in the
> notification area and says there are updates waiting to be installed
> I had assumed that if I clicked on that I'd be given an opportunity
> to browse which updates had arrived and choose which to install
> before the system did so, and yet I have a feeling that I've clciked
> on this icon and had updating go ahead without any chance for me to
> see what's available. Is there some other place to go to look at
> what's been downloaded but not yet applied?

> In the particular problem I had with the second part of updating
> occuring at shutdown, can I safely assume that the AV software had
> been killed by the Windows shutdown process before the updating
> started? If not, since I did not know that the updates stuff was
> going to happen, what am I supposed to do - shutdown AV software
> manually before every shutdown of the machine?

No reply to that until I specifically asked for comments on the 12 hour
aspect, then Frank replied:

> No comment on the 12 hours. That I missed in the first message. I
> guess I don't have an answer, but if it were my machine I would
> backup all my data and downloaded install programs and then format
> and reinstall. Unless the machine is working well enough for you.

> And then only download 2 or 3 updates at a time.

- to which I responded:

I'm so new to Windows, let alone XP, that I've only used a tiny amount
of the system. Can't really tell if it's working "well enough". OTOH
a format & reinstall at this stage isn't too appealing, because I don't
know how to go about it; I'd hoped that XP was robust enough that I'd
never have to learn how to do this.

> And then only download 2 or 3 updates at a time.

How does one control that? I selected the option to have the machine
download stuff and tell me what's there before it installs it, and I
really don't think it told me it was about to install 56 upgrades.

I don't absolutely remember, but I *think* that tooltip text showed
near the notification area's WU icon saying that stuff had been
downloaded and was ready to install and to click the icon... So I did.
I expected to be shown what had arrived and to be given the choice as
to which bits I wanted to install (because XP knew I'd chosen the
choose-when-to-install option).

I'm now wondering if XP treats a click on that icon as an instruction
to go ahead and install the whole lot rather than an instruction to
show what's arrived and decide what to do next. If that click does
mean that, then how does one (a) disable the icon so it can never be
accidentally clicked (by me or anyone else), and (b) find and act on a
list of separate available-to-be-installed updates?

If there'd been a choice presented to me allowing me to upgrade just a
little at a time, I'm certain I'd have chosen it - because I used to be
a mainframe S/370 systems programmer and I truly understand that
several small upgrades are easier to work with than one monster one.
OTOH as a mainframe sysprog I was also used to being presented with the
info that described pre-req and co-requisite demands of each fix, so we
knew which ones could be applied by themselves and which had to go on
in groups. I presume that WU has some similar logic in it somewhere,
but that's not displayed to users?

--
Jeremy C B Nicoll, Edinburgh, Scotland - my opinions are my own.

Jeremy;
Generally I recommend about 3 or 4 updates at a time.
I also disable anti virus and other unnecessary programs such as download
accelerators, and other tools. Especially disable those claiming to improve
performance since often the opposite is true.

In your case, you had a new installation and Automatic Updates turned on.
With that setting , there is no choice for fewer than all updates.
To choose updates, go to Windows/Microsoft Update and choose "Custom".
You will be able to choose any and all you want each time.
But with a new installation such as yours, there is usually no problem to
installing all the update all at once as you attempted.
Installing the updates during the shutdown cycles you did gives no
indication of progress.
Perhaps because it is assumed you are leaving the computer and no message is
necessary.
After 12 hours, I would have assumed problems and shutdown as you did.
However if you installed various programs and maybe unfortunately some type
of malware, anything can happen.

There is also a possibility some updates did not install properly and may
not show in Windows Update.
Install and run MBSA to help verify:
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/sec.../mbsahome.mspx

With a new computer/Windows installation, updates, anti virus, firewall and
anti spyware tools should be installed before anything else.
Your computer should be safe and secure before doing anything.

--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
http://www3.telus.net/dandemar
http://www.dts-l.org


"Jeremy C B Nicoll" <> wrote in message
news:...
> Before I found this group, I asked the following question on
> microsoft.public.windowsxp.basics and got a little advice. I'd be
> grateful if anyone here can suggest how I can find out what happened.
> I first posted:
>
>> XP Pro, SP2; a new machine not yet fully patched.
>
>> On a recent shutdown when I clicked on Start->TurnOff, the next choice
>> mentioned something like "Turn Off and apply updates" rather than just
>> "Turn Off". I chose it and what looked like a normal shutdown then
>> proceeded. I got the blue display that tells you Windows is logging
>> off, shutting down etc, and it said:
>
>> Applying update 1 of 56
>
>> and Do not turn off....
>
>> alternating. Twelve hours later that was still the situation, and I
>> did turn the machine off. On the next boot it clearly didn't start
>> cleanly; I got continuous eggtimer whenever the pointer went near the
>> task bar (so couldn't click on Start for example), but right-click on
>> the backdrop worked. I switched it off again. On the next boot the
>> machine started cleanly and has appeared fine ever since.
>
>> What happened?
>
> "Frank Saunders, MS-MVP OE/WM" replied saying:
>
>> You turned the machine off during the install of an update. Therefore
>> you broke whatever it was installing. You were extremely lucky that
>> Windows managed to heal itself.
>
> which wasn't helpful; I replied to that with:
>
>> > You turned the machine off during the install of an update.
>
>> Did I really? What update is there that would take 12 hours to get
>> nowhere (on a 1.8Ghz machine)? Not even as far as update 2 or 3 or 40
>> out of 56, or whatever?
>
>> Will what the machine thought it was doing be logged anywhere? I'd
>> certainly like to see some evidence that something was going on.
>
>> As I'm new to this I don't know what to expect. When I've had bits
>> of updates download and install when Windows is running I've seen
>> progress information in a dialog box on screen, eg downloading update
>> xxx part 1 of 3 ... etc, then installing part 1 of 3 ... - and each
>> part of that only takes a few seconds or minutes to update. Why is
>> there no continuously updated display when the stuff running at
>> shutdown is executing, if that's normal?
>
>> After 12 hours of no progress at all I decided the thing was stuck.
>> Is there any way I could have got info on what it was doing, at that
>> point?
>
>> How long should I have waited?
>
>
>> I read in another thread someone's comment that AV software shouldn't
>> be allowed to run while updates are being applied. It's not obvious
>> to me at what point in an update process one would manually disable
>> one's AV software. I have WindowsUpdate set to download but not
>> install stuff; however when the small WU icon appears in the
>> notification area and says there are updates waiting to be installed
>> I had assumed that if I clicked on that I'd be given an opportunity
>> to browse which updates had arrived and choose which to install
>> before the system did so, and yet I have a feeling that I've clciked
>> on this icon and had updating go ahead without any chance for me to
>> see what's available. Is there some other place to go to look at
>> what's been downloaded but not yet applied?
>
>> In the particular problem I had with the second part of updating
>> occuring at shutdown, can I safely assume that the AV software had
>> been killed by the Windows shutdown process before the updating
>> started? If not, since I did not know that the updates stuff was
>> going to happen, what am I supposed to do - shutdown AV software
>> manually before every shutdown of the machine?
>
> No reply to that until I specifically asked for comments on the 12 hour
> aspect, then Frank replied:
>
>> No comment on the 12 hours. That I missed in the first message. I
>> guess I don't have an answer, but if it were my machine I would
>> backup all my data and downloaded install programs and then format
>> and reinstall. Unless the machine is working well enough for you.
>
>> And then only download 2 or 3 updates at a time.
>
> - to which I responded:
>
> I'm so new to Windows, let alone XP, that I've only used a tiny amount
> of the system. Can't really tell if it's working "well enough". OTOH
> a format & reinstall at this stage isn't too appealing, because I don't
> know how to go about it; I'd hoped that XP was robust enough that I'd
> never have to learn how to do this.
>
>> And then only download 2 or 3 updates at a time.
>
> How does one control that? I selected the option to have the machine
> download stuff and tell me what's there before it installs it, and I
> really don't think it told me it was about to install 56 upgrades.
>
> I don't absolutely remember, but I *think* that tooltip text showed
> near the notification area's WU icon saying that stuff had been
> downloaded and was ready to install and to click the icon... So I did.
> I expected to be shown what had arrived and to be given the choice as
> to which bits I wanted to install (because XP knew I'd chosen the
> choose-when-to-install option).
>
> I'm now wondering if XP treats a click on that icon as an instruction
> to go ahead and install the whole lot rather than an instruction to
> show what's arrived and decide what to do next. If that click does
> mean that, then how does one (a) disable the icon so it can never be
> accidentally clicked (by me or anyone else), and (b) find and act on a
> list of separate available-to-be-installed updates?
>
> If there'd been a choice presented to me allowing me to upgrade just a
> little at a time, I'm certain I'd have chosen it - because I used to be
> a mainframe S/370 systems programmer and I truly understand that
> several small upgrades are easier to work with than one monster one.
> OTOH as a mainframe sysprog I was also used to being presented with the
> info that described pre-req and co-requisite demands of each fix, so we
> knew which ones could be applied by themselves and which had to go on
> in groups. I presume that WU has some similar logic in it somewhere,
> but that's not displayed to users?
>
> --
> Jeremy C B Nicoll, Edinburgh, Scotland - my opinions are my own.

In article <>, Jupiter Jones
[MVP] <> wrote:
> Jeremy;

Hi; thanks for replying so fast!

> Generally I recommend about 3 or 4 updates at a time.

I had hoped that that was going to happen... I think I expected that
with the "tell me & let me choose" option selected that when I got the
notification area's thing saying "there are updates, click here" I'd be
led to some place where I could read the detail of each fix and then
choose them one or two at a time.

The impression I have now, especially having used the WU website is
that all the reading about updates has to be done before you elect to
have them downloaded. Once things are downloaded they seem to get
installed immediately. Nothing I'd read before I first tried this made
me think this would happen. I expected Windows to tell me that a whole
load of stuff was downloaded, then let me read each one's documentation
and decide what to do with it, and I would certainly have picked them a
few at a time.


> In your case, you had a new installation and Automatic Updates turned
> on.

I suppose I must have had. What's worrying is that I already thought
I'd picked either "tell me but download nothing" or "download but let
me choose when to install". When the mammoth update started I did
think something had been downloaded, but not anything like 56 updates.

But I also think I may have picked the "express" option on the website
and perhaps that means you get everything applicable downloaded but
don't get given any info about what is being selected for download.
Certainly I didn't see anything saying umpteen things had been or were
being downloaded. This is the sort of area where I think that MS< in -
I suppose - trying to hide techy detail from ordinary people - have
made the whole process too opaque. *I* don't want to have a webpage
only offer me a "click here to download & install..." option. Why
isn't there a "click to download and not install yet" option?

> With that setting, there is no choice for fewer than all updates.
> To choose updates, go to Windows/Microsoft Update and choose
> "Custom". You will be able to choose any and all you want each time.

I will, I will.

> But with a new installation such as yours, there is usually no
> problem to installing all the update all at once as you attempted.

> Installing the updates during the shutdown cycles you did gives no
> indication of progress.

> Perhaps because it is assumed you are leaving the computer and no
> message is necessary. After 12 hours, I would have assumed problems
> and shutdown as you did. However if you installed various programs
> and maybe unfortunately some type of malware, anything can happen.

I've installed nothing yet, wanting to get Windows itself uptodate
first. But the shop I bought the machine from had done(*). There's MS
Office, some multimedia stuff, the free version of ZoneAlarm, Spybot
S&D, and NOD32. I'd run S&D and a detailed NOD32 scan before doing any
of this, and have since done so, and never found a problem.

* the local computer shop person actually told me specifically to turn
off WU because it would cause a sh*tload of trouble, and just to wait
for the next service pack. But as a mainframe sysprog I didn't much
like the sound of that... I'm hoping not to have to go back to him
& tell him what a mess I've got into. (And meantime, it's nice to
have a non-x86 non-Windows/Linux platform to use to research the
problem. Unfortunately that's also a non-mobile, crappy old browser
with no state-of-the-art anything facilities machine, which is why
I finally bought a laptop and got XP.)

> There is also a possibility some updates did not install properly and
> may not show in Windows Update. Install and run MBSA to help verify:
> http://www.microsoft.com/technet/sec.../mbsahome.mspx

Ah, thank-you for that idea.

> With a new computer/Windows installation, updates, anti virus,
> firewall and anti spyware tools should be installed before anything
> else. Your computer should be safe and secure before doing anything.

Well I hope it was; it was also behind a "hardware" firewall.

--
Jeremy C B Nicoll, Edinburgh, Scotland - my opinions are my own.

Jeremy;
It sounds like your computer was secure and there should have been no
problems with the updates, even 50+.
Sometimes no matter how much you do, something can happen and there is
little you can do to prevent it beyond what you already did.

As for the tech that said wait for the next Service Pack...
SP-3 is expected somewhere about 3Q 2007, about a year away.
Al lot of updates can come out in that time adding to what would have
already been missed by not getting the others.
If that tech can not give more of a reason than "it would cause a sh*tload
of trouble", look elsewhere for a competent tech.

--
Jupiter Jones [MVP]
http://www3.telus.net/dandemar
http://www.dts-l.org


"Jeremy C B Nicoll" <> wrote in message
news:...
> In article <>, Jupiter Jones
> [MVP] <> wrote:
>> Jeremy;
>
> Hi; thanks for replying so fast!
>
>> Generally I recommend about 3 or 4 updates at a time.
>
> I had hoped that that was going to happen... I think I expected that
> with the "tell me & let me choose" option selected that when I got the
> notification area's thing saying "there are updates, click here" I'd be
> led to some place where I could read the detail of each fix and then
> choose them one or two at a time.
>
> The impression I have now, especially having used the WU website is
> that all the reading about updates has to be done before you elect to
> have them downloaded. Once things are downloaded they seem to get
> installed immediately. Nothing I'd read before I first tried this made
> me think this would happen. I expected Windows to tell me that a whole
> load of stuff was downloaded, then let me read each one's documentation
> and decide what to do with it, and I would certainly have picked them a
> few at a time.
>
>
>> In your case, you had a new installation and Automatic Updates turned
>> on.
>
> I suppose I must have had. What's worrying is that I already thought
> I'd picked either "tell me but download nothing" or "download but let
> me choose when to install". When the mammoth update started I did
> think something had been downloaded, but not anything like 56 updates.
>
> But I also think I may have picked the "express" option on the website
> and perhaps that means you get everything applicable downloaded but
> don't get given any info about what is being selected for download.
> Certainly I didn't see anything saying umpteen things had been or were
> being downloaded. This is the sort of area where I think that MS< in -
> I suppose - trying to hide techy detail from ordinary people - have
> made the whole process too opaque. *I* don't want to have a webpage
> only offer me a "click here to download & install..." option. Why
> isn't there a "click to download and not install yet" option?
>
>> With that setting, there is no choice for fewer than all updates.
>> To choose updates, go to Windows/Microsoft Update and choose
>> "Custom". You will be able to choose any and all you want each time.
>
> I will, I will.
>
>> But with a new installation such as yours, there is usually no
>> problem to installing all the update all at once as you attempted.
>
>> Installing the updates during the shutdown cycles you did gives no
>> indication of progress.
>
>> Perhaps because it is assumed you are leaving the computer and no
>> message is necessary. After 12 hours, I would have assumed problems
>> and shutdown as you did. However if you installed various programs
>> and maybe unfortunately some type of malware, anything can happen.
>
> I've installed nothing yet, wanting to get Windows itself uptodate
> first. But the shop I bought the machine from had done(*). There's MS
> Office, some multimedia stuff, the free version of ZoneAlarm, Spybot
> S&D, and NOD32. I'd run S&D and a detailed NOD32 scan before doing any
> of this, and have since done so, and never found a problem.
>
> * the local computer shop person actually told me specifically to turn
> off WU because it would cause a sh*tload of trouble, and just to wait
> for the next service pack. But as a mainframe sysprog I didn't much
> like the sound of that... I'm hoping not to have to go back to him
> & tell him what a mess I've got into. (And meantime, it's nice to
> have a non-x86 non-Windows/Linux platform to use to research the
> problem. Unfortunately that's also a non-mobile, crappy old browser
> with no state-of-the-art anything facilities machine, which is why
> I finally bought a laptop and got XP.)
>
>> There is also a possibility some updates did not install properly and
>> may not show in Windows Update. Install and run MBSA to help verify:
>> http://www.microsoft.com/technet/sec.../mbsahome.mspx
>
> Ah, thank-you for that idea.
>
>> With a new computer/Windows installation, updates, anti virus,
>> firewall and anti spyware tools should be installed before anything
>> else. Your computer should be safe and secure before doing anything.
>
> Well I hope it was; it was also behind a "hardware" firewall.
>
> --
> Jeremy C B Nicoll, Edinburgh, Scotland - my opinions are my own.