Trying to understand what WU does...

My work background includes installing & customising mainframe OSes, so
I definitely understand the sort of thing that WU might be trying to
manage. I do understand that making something like this work in a way
that technically naive users can do it is hard - but I think MS have
failed in that. All those daft eight-digit error numbers, for example.
Loads of users must see those once and never try to do an update ever
again.

Where might I find a detailed description of what WU and MU actually
do? I want to know things like:

- where fixes are put when they are downloaded automatically

- how to be sure that a downloaded fix is not corrupt

- if I choose to download fixes manually does it matter where I
choose to keep them; how do I then initiate install of such
fixes?

- which files (eg logs, original fix definitions) can I delete
after doing an install?

- is there an overall WU or MU processing log somewhere, separate
from those that describe what was done for each individual fix?

- should I have my file backup software ignore any of these
downloaded files, or update logs? How do I prevent a restore
of some or all files (perhaps to resolve some other problem on
my machine) from restoring the previous levels of some targets
of fixes while not updating whatever control files or registry
entries there are describing the state of Windows?

- what inside an update's definition specifies what the
pre-requisite/co-requisite fixes that might be required are?

- what ensures that a set of fixes are applied in the right order...

- what all the stuff in a KBnnnn.log file actually means? For example
I've looked at some which are full of reports of various problems,
eg "update.ver" files being corrupt, various things not being found
etc. How does one tell if these are expected "not found"s, or ones
explaining an update that can't be applied?

- can one really believe the WU website when it shows icons saying
that fixes have been properly installed? What does the checking
code on the website actually look for?

- if, as some of my KBnnnn.log files suggest, my machine has made
multiple attempts to install a fix is actually the case, is there
a way to determine why/if it finally worked?

- if there's been multiple attempts to get an install to work, can
I be sure that removing a fix will work - that the prior version
of whatever programs were updated really will be restored ok?

- if I manually select a fix in add/remove programs, and elect to
remove it, what process is there that will prevent that from
being done if there's some inter-dependency between the fix I'm
asking to remove and other fixes?

I've asked some of my untechnical friends how they cope with WU and
they either say, rarely, "I turned it on and it just works", or they
rather more often ask "what is WU?" which is disturbing. Or they have
tried it and there some weird error message so they reinstalled windows
and left WU turned off for good ever since. People like that don't
know about newsgroups or web forums... and even if they did they maybe
can't make their machine work any longer. How do MS expect them to
cope? The whole thing seems far too complicated for "normal" people
and insufficiently well documented for anyone to understand.

--
Jeremy C B Nicoll, Edinburgh, Scotland - my opinions are my own.

see comments - only 3 questions commented on. Maybe someone else will jump in with
their comments.

--

==================================
TaurArian [MS-MVP] 2005-2007 - Australia
==================================
http://www.dts-l.org/goodpost.htm
Need more help? http://support.microsoft.com/?scid=ph;en-us;6527
(Links to web pages and MSKB Articles are posted for the purposes of keeping the
information current)


"Jeremy C B Nicoll" <> wrote in message
news:...
| My work background includes installing & customising mainframe OSes, so
| I definitely understand the sort of thing that WU might be trying to
| manage. I do understand that making something like this work in a way
| that technically naive users can do it is hard - but I think MS have
| failed in that. All those daft eight-digit error numbers, for example.
| Loads of users must see those once and never try to do an update ever
| again.
|
| Where might I find a detailed description of what WU and MU actually
| do? I want to know things like:
|
| - where fixes are put when they are downloaded automatically


under Windows\softwaredistribution folder.



| - how to be sure that a downloaded fix is not corrupt


| - if I choose to download fixes manually does it matter where I
| choose to keep them; how do I then initiate install of such
| fixes?

You can download them from the Catalog and save to be installed later.
http://v4.windowsupdate.microsoft.co...en/default.asp

Click Add button for each update you want to download. Once you have what you want,
Click the “Go To Download Basket” link. Type in or browse to the location where you
want the updates saved to and then Click the “Download Now” button.
Once downloaded, you can then burn them to CD.

How to download updates and drivers from the Windows Update Catalog or from the
Microsoft Update Catalog
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/323166

Other links which may be of interest:

Search for a download
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/s...displaylang=en

How to install multiple Windows updates or hotfixes with only one reboot
http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=296861

Your one stop post for Windows Critical Updates!
http://www.msfn.org/board/index.php?showtopic=31886


| - which files (eg logs, original fix definitions) can I delete
| after doing an install?

Folders that have uninstall as part of the name (for example $NtUninstallKB282010$
which reside in C:\windows (hidden folders) are Window Hot Fix Update folders/files)
can be safely deleted (providing you never wish to uninstall the updates). I would
recommend leaving these folders for a period of at least a month to make sure the
update is working correctly.

These updates can be deleted individually or in multiples. To find out more about the
update/s go to:
http://support.microsoft.com/?kbid=XXXXXX
NB: XXXXXX = the actual number not including the "Q" or "KB"

Once you have deleted the uninstall folders/files, then go to Control Panel,
Add/Remove Programs. Select the matching Windows Hotfix Title relating the update
folder/file you have just deleted and select remove. You will get a Windows error.
This is because you have deleted the uninstall folder/files. Just choose OK and the
entry will be deleted from the Add/Remove Programs Listing.



| - is there an overall WU or MU processing log somewhere, separate
| from those that describe what was done for each individual fix?
|
| - should I have my file backup software ignore any of these
| downloaded files, or update logs? How do I prevent a restore
| of some or all files (perhaps to resolve some other problem on
| my machine) from restoring the previous levels of some targets
| of fixes while not updating whatever control files or registry
| entries there are describing the state of Windows?
|
| - what inside an update's definition specifies what the
| pre-requisite/co-requisite fixes that might be required are?
|
| - what ensures that a set of fixes are applied in the right order...
|
| - what all the stuff in a KBnnnn.log file actually means? For example
| I've looked at some which are full of reports of various problems,
| eg "update.ver" files being corrupt, various things not being found
| etc. How does one tell if these are expected "not found"s, or ones
| explaining an update that can't be applied?
|
| - can one really believe the WU website when it shows icons saying
| that fixes have been properly installed? What does the checking
| code on the website actually look for?
|
| - if, as some of my KBnnnn.log files suggest, my machine has made
| multiple attempts to install a fix is actually the case, is there
| a way to determine why/if it finally worked?
|
| - if there's been multiple attempts to get an install to work, can
| I be sure that removing a fix will work - that the prior version
| of whatever programs were updated really will be restored ok?
|
| - if I manually select a fix in add/remove programs, and elect to
| remove it, what process is there that will prevent that from
| being done if there's some inter-dependency between the fix I'm
| asking to remove and other fixes?
|
| I've asked some of my untechnical friends how they cope with WU and
| they either say, rarely, "I turned it on and it just works", or they
| rather more often ask "what is WU?" which is disturbing. Or they have
| tried it and there some weird error message so they reinstalled windows
| and left WU turned off for good ever since. People like that don't
| know about newsgroups or web forums... and even if they did they maybe
| can't make their machine work any longer. How do MS expect them to
| cope? The whole thing seems far too complicated for "normal" people
| and insufficiently well documented for anyone to understand.
|
| --
| Jeremy C B Nicoll, Edinburgh, Scotland - my opinions are my own.

More answers to some of your queries can be viewed here:
http://www.microsoft.com/technet/pro.../winupdte.mspx

There is no *one place to find all the info you've requested. If there
was, I'd understand the whole process a great deal more

MowGreen [MVP 2003-2006]
===============
*-343-* FDNY
Never Forgotten
===============

Jeremy C B Nicoll wrote:

> My work background includes installing & customising mainframe OSes, so
> I definitely understand the sort of thing that WU might be trying to
> manage. I do understand that making something like this work in a way
> that technically naive users can do it is hard - but I think MS have
> failed in that. All those daft eight-digit error numbers, for example.
> Loads of users must see those once and never try to do an update ever
> again.
>
> Where might I find a detailed description of what WU and MU actually
> do? I want to know things like:
>
> - where fixes are put when they are downloaded automatically
>
> - how to be sure that a downloaded fix is not corrupt
>
> - if I choose to download fixes manually does it matter where I
> choose to keep them; how do I then initiate install of such
> fixes?
>
> - which files (eg logs, original fix definitions) can I delete
> after doing an install?
>
> - is there an overall WU or MU processing log somewhere, separate
> from those that describe what was done for each individual fix?
>
> - should I have my file backup software ignore any of these
> downloaded files, or update logs? How do I prevent a restore
> of some or all files (perhaps to resolve some other problem on
> my machine) from restoring the previous levels of some targets
> of fixes while not updating whatever control files or registry
> entries there are describing the state of Windows?
>
> - what inside an update's definition specifies what the
> pre-requisite/co-requisite fixes that might be required are?
>
> - what ensures that a set of fixes are applied in the right order...
>
> - what all the stuff in a KBnnnn.log file actually means? For example
> I've looked at some which are full of reports of various problems,
> eg "update.ver" files being corrupt, various things not being found
> etc. How does one tell if these are expected "not found"s, or ones
> explaining an update that can't be applied?
>
> - can one really believe the WU website when it shows icons saying
> that fixes have been properly installed? What does the checking
> code on the website actually look for?
>
> - if, as some of my KBnnnn.log files suggest, my machine has made
> multiple attempts to install a fix is actually the case, is there
> a way to determine why/if it finally worked?
>
> - if there's been multiple attempts to get an install to work, can
> I be sure that removing a fix will work - that the prior version
> of whatever programs were updated really will be restored ok?
>
> - if I manually select a fix in add/remove programs, and elect to
> remove it, what process is there that will prevent that from
> being done if there's some inter-dependency between the fix I'm
> asking to remove and other fixes?
>
> I've asked some of my untechnical friends how they cope with WU and
> they either say, rarely, "I turned it on and it just works", or they
> rather more often ask "what is WU?" which is disturbing. Or they have
> tried it and there some weird error message so they reinstalled windows
> and left WU turned off for good ever since. People like that don't
> know about newsgroups or web forums... and even if they did they maybe
> can't make their machine work any longer. How do MS expect them to
> cope? The whole thing seems far too complicated for "normal" people
> and insufficiently well documented for anyone to understand.
>

In article <>,
TaurArian [MS-MVP] <> wrote:
> see comments - only 3 questions commented on. Maybe someone else will
> jump in with their comments.

Thanks for the information. It all helps!



> Folders that have uninstall as part of the name (for example
> $NtUninstallKB282010$ which reside in C:\windows (hidden folders)
> are Window Hot Fix Update folders/files) can be safely deleted...

> Once you have deleted the uninstall folders/files, then go to Control
> Panel, Add/Remove Programs. Select the matching Windows Hotfix Title
> relating the update folder/file you have just deleted and select
> remove. You will get a Windows error. This is because you have
> deleted the uninstall folder/files. Just choose OK and the entry will
> be deleted from the Add/Remove Programs Listing.

Is that a "good idea"? Presumably the fix itself is still installed,
but then there's no simple way to see which fixes are installed.

Does the display in Add/Remove Programs get built from control
information kept somewhere else (the registry?)?

What happens normally with WU if some fix from MS supercedes a prior
one? Does the display in Add/Remove Programs still display the fact
that the prior one had been installed? And if it doesn't, if you
remove the later fix does the prior one reappear in the Add/Remove list?

--
Jeremy C B Nicoll, Edinburgh, Scotland - my opinions are my own.

On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 01:08:13 +0100, Jeremy C B Nicoll
<> wrote:

>In article <>,
> TaurArian [MS-MVP] <> wrote:
>> see comments - only 3 questions commented on. Maybe someone else will
>> jump in with their comments.
>
>Thanks for the information. It all helps!
>
>
>
>> Folders that have uninstall as part of the name (for example
>> $NtUninstallKB282010$ which reside in C:\windows (hidden folders)
>> are Window Hot Fix Update folders/files) can be safely deleted...
>
>> Once you have deleted the uninstall folders/files, then go to Control
>> Panel, Add/Remove Programs. Select the matching Windows Hotfix Title
>> relating the update folder/file you have just deleted and select
>> remove. You will get a Windows error. This is because you have
>> deleted the uninstall folder/files. Just choose OK and the entry will
>> be deleted from the Add/Remove Programs Listing.
>
>Is that a "good idea"? Presumably the fix itself is still installed,
>but then there's no simple way to see which fixes are installed.
>
>Does the display in Add/Remove Programs get built from control
>information kept somewhere else (the registry?)?
>
>What happens normally with WU if some fix from MS supercedes a prior
>one? Does the display in Add/Remove Programs still display the fact
>that the prior one had been installed? And if it doesn't, if you
>remove the later fix does the prior one reappear in the Add/Remove list?
Hello, no I'm pretty sure it doesn't do that.

I used to work on IBM mainframes myself as a sys prog. Quite
familiar with SMP/E. I think in the windows world explicit
requisites are not defined. Rather the date/time of a module and the
internal version number are used to tell whether the updates are
applied properly.

You can use the command qfecheck from a CMD window to see what is
applied, and whther or not the system considers them good.
(It will give a message if a particular fix "needs to be reapplied")

Dave

"Jeremy C B Nicoll" <> wrote in message
news:...
> My work background includes installing & customising mainframe OSes, so
> I definitely understand the sort of thing that WU might be trying to
> manage. I do understand that making something like this work in a way
> that technically naive users can do it is hard - but I think MS have
> failed in that. All those daft eight-digit error numbers, for example.
> Loads of users must see those once and never try to do an update ever
> again.
>
> Where might I find a detailed description of what WU and MU actually
> do?


You think Microsoft publish logic manuals like IBM did? <LOL>

I'm not even sure that Microsoft even *write* internals manuals like that
internally. Certainly they seem generally clueless about providing usable
diagnostics for end-users. (Not to be completely negative about this,
at least there are *more* diagnostics available now than the dearth of them
in say WUv4; so believe it or not things are improving. <w>)


> I want to know things like:
>
> - where fixes are put when they are downloaded automatically
>
> - how to be sure that a downloaded fix is not corrupt


That would be: does it install and do I not have any bad symptoms
after installing it. <eg>


>
> - if I choose to download fixes manually does it matter where I
> choose to keep them; how do I then initiate install of such
> fixes?
>
> - which files (eg logs, original fix definitions) can I delete
> after doing an install?
>
> - is there an overall WU or MU processing log somewhere, separate
> from those that describe what was done for each individual fix?
>
> - should I have my file backup software ignore any of these
> downloaded files, or update logs? How do I prevent a restore
> of some or all files (perhaps to resolve some other problem on
> my machine) from restoring the previous levels of some targets
> of fixes while not updating whatever control files or registry
> entries there are describing the state of Windows?
>
> - what inside an update's definition specifies what the
> pre-requisite/co-requisite fixes that might be required are?


My impression is that that is all(?) done on the server.
The closest you can get to seeing it is via the MBSA
which supposedly even has a method of generating XML
to represent the update information including dependencies.
BTW it all used to be much easier with Shavlik's HFNetChk
and mssecure.xml (which was also browsable by IE.)
I'd check out the MBSA NG if learning more about this aspect
of update technology seems interesting. Note: it looks as if
you now may have to have strong scripting skills to make use
of the new implementation. Perhaps the idea is to close it off
from end-users?


>
> - what ensures that a set of fixes are applied in the right order...
>
> - what all the stuff in a KBnnnn.log file actually means? For example
> I've looked at some which are full of reports of various problems,
> eg "update.ver" files being corrupt, various things not being found
> etc. How does one tell if these are expected "not found"s, or ones
> explaining an update that can't be applied?


See what I wrote above about cluelessness? <eg>
To really get an eyeful try activating "verbose" logging for WU.
(ref. KB902093)


>
> - can one really believe the WU website when it shows icons saying
> that fixes have been properly installed? What does the checking
> code on the website actually look for?


It seems to be checking both registry values and each module's version.
Don't know if it also does CRC checks. I think that that is SFC's
responsibility.


>
> - if, as some of my KBnnnn.log files suggest, my machine has made
> multiple attempts to install a fix is actually the case, is there
> a way to determine why/if it finally worked?


Different pattern of log messages? Proper versions of modules?


>
> - if there's been multiple attempts to get an install to work, can
> I be sure that removing a fix will work - that the prior version
> of whatever programs were updated really will be restored ok?


Probably depends on how soon after the update you want to try
the uninstall. E.g. it appears that rather than managing a tree
of dependency info. all that happens is the old saved versions
of the modules involved are restored and the old saved versions
of the registry branches are also restored. When you try to uninstall
something after installing a bunch more things you just seem to get
a lame list of those things as possibly being impacted by your uninstall
rather than a precise list of known regressions.


>
> - if I manually select a fix in add/remove programs, and elect to
> remove it, what process is there that will prevent that from
> being done if there's some inter-dependency between the fix I'm
> asking to remove and other fixes?
>
> I've asked some of my untechnical friends how they cope with WU and
> they either say, rarely, "I turned it on and it just works", or they
> rather more often ask "what is WU?" which is disturbing. Or they have
> tried it and there some weird error message so they reinstalled windows
> and left WU turned off for good ever since. People like that don't
> know about newsgroups or web forums... and even if they did they maybe
> can't make their machine work any longer. How do MS expect them to
> cope? The whole thing seems far too complicated for "normal" people
> and insufficiently well documented for anyone to understand.


You said it!

BTW I suspect you may get more knowledgeable info about how
update technology really works in the update server related NG:

news:microsoft.public.windows.server.update_servic es

That one is also known as WSUS.

There is also one called SUS. I guess it may becoming obsolete now
but suspect old information retained for it on Google Groups could still
be relevant at least as background info.

http://groups.google.com/group/micro...a3901f14c4a4bd

To cut through the chaff I suggest you add (MSFT OR MVP)
initially to any searches you try.


Good luck

Robert Aldwinckle
---