Upgrade NT4.0 Server -> Win2K3. Question about upgrade procedure

Hi,
I'm new with Windows Servers. Fairly familiar with UNIX machines but that's
not going to help me here..

I am trying to add a new server to replace the old hack that's there now,
new guy will have Win2K3 on it.

I plan to follow the following instructions -
http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...displaylang=en

One thing - it mentions that I have to build the server as NT4.0 first and
THEN upgrade to Win2K3 once it's in as the PDC. Why is this? (Partly for me
to know but mostly so I can explain this to my boss). Is there a technical
reason related to something conflicting?

Thanks in advance.

One of the main reasons here is that servers still running Windows NT will
quite likely not be able to run Windows Server 2003 due to lack of system
resources.

Another reason is that in the end you get clean installation of your new
Windows Server 2003 and not upgrade of old Windows NT server -- where you
will run out of disk space very soon since it had 4GB large boot partition.

Since you create your temporary server a PDC you can disconnect your old
hardware (now BDC) from network and have it as a backup in case something
goes wrong during the upgrade (e.g. I had a case when after the upgrade
Administrator could not logon to domain any more. Going back was very easy
since I had original hardware and domain controller intact).

Still -- you don't need completely new computer. You can use any temporary
peace of hardware that is able to hold Windows Server 2003 for the time
being while you are doing upgrade. I have even done it using Virtual Server
instead of additional hardware.

I hope this helps,

--
Mike
Microsoft MVP - Windows Security

"Nick_Japan" <> wrote in message
news:0C5189AA-94C5-4CF1-9CEA-...
> Hi,
> I'm new with Windows Servers. Fairly familiar with UNIX machines but
> that's
> not going to help me here..
>
> I am trying to add a new server to replace the old hack that's there now,
> new guy will have Win2K3 on it.
>
> I plan to follow the following instructions -
> http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...displaylang=en
>
> One thing - it mentions that I have to build the server as NT4.0 first and
> THEN upgrade to Win2K3 once it's in as the PDC. Why is this? (Partly for
> me
> to know but mostly so I can explain this to my boss). Is there a technical
> reason related to something conflicting?
>
> Thanks in advance.

Thanks Miha, let me clarify a bit...

I have a new HP server with a ton of resources. It can easily run Server
2003. This server has not been put into the network nor have I installed any
OS onto it yet.

I want to upgrade the current small office network to AD (eventually), all
the PC's are compatible (Win2K or XP).

According to the instruction manual I linked below (Chapter 1, page 5, fig
1.2), I believe I have to:
1. install WinNT server first
2. then put it into the network and make sure configurations are OK
3. then promoted it to PDC
4. Then upgrade it to Win2k3 Server
5. Then set up Active Directory on the new machine

Can I not just put the server in running Windows 2003 Server and promote to
PDC and go from there?

To make sure I understand you below, you're suggesting that I:
1. Get any HW that can run Windows 2003 server
2. do the steps I list above on that machine
3. then add the actual new server to the network and
4. promote it to PDC
5. Advantages of doing it this way are that you don't get disadvantages
rolling over from the computer formerly running NT4 server.

Sorry if these are basic Q's. I'm not qualified for what I have to do so
would like to be clear. Appreciate your help.

Thanks,


"Miha Pihler [MVP]" wrote:

> One of the main reasons here is that servers still running Windows NT will
> quite likely not be able to run Windows Server 2003 due to lack of system
> resources.
>
> Another reason is that in the end you get clean installation of your new
> Windows Server 2003 and not upgrade of old Windows NT server -- where you
> will run out of disk space very soon since it had 4GB large boot partition.
>
> Since you create your temporary server a PDC you can disconnect your old
> hardware (now BDC) from network and have it as a backup in case something
> goes wrong during the upgrade (e.g. I had a case when after the upgrade
> Administrator could not logon to domain any more. Going back was very easy
> since I had original hardware and domain controller intact).
>
> Still -- you don't need completely new computer. You can use any temporary
> peace of hardware that is able to hold Windows Server 2003 for the time
> being while you are doing upgrade. I have even done it using Virtual Server
> instead of additional hardware.
>
> I hope this helps,
>
> --
> Mike
> Microsoft MVP - Windows Security
>
> "Nick_Japan" <> wrote in message
> news:0C5189AA-94C5-4CF1-9CEA-...
> > Hi,
> > I'm new with Windows Servers. Fairly familiar with UNIX machines but
> > that's
> > not going to help me here..
> >
> > I am trying to add a new server to replace the old hack that's there now,
> > new guy will have Win2K3 on it.
> >
> > I plan to follow the following instructions -
> > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...displaylang=en
> >
> > One thing - it mentions that I have to build the server as NT4.0 first and
> > THEN upgrade to Win2K3 once it's in as the PDC. Why is this? (Partly for
> > me
> > to know but mostly so I can explain this to my boss). Is there a technical
> > reason related to something conflicting?
> >
> > Thanks in advance.
>
>
>

Hi Nick,

Is your current NT 4.0 server a domain controller or is it just a server?
What is role of this server? On what kind of software is your current
Windows NT 4.0 domain controller running? Advice in the article is for the
upgrade of Windows NT 4.0 domain controller to Windows Server 2003 domain
controller.

One limit on Windows NT was system partition size of 4 GB. Do you have
enough space on the server (that partition) to do direct upgrade?

Some additional comments are below

--
Mike
Microsoft MVP - Windows Security

<snip>

> According to the instruction manual I linked below (Chapter 1, page 5, fig
> 1.2), I believe I have to:
> 1. install WinNT server first
> 2. then put it into the network and make sure configurations are OK
> 3. then promoted it to PDC
> 4. Then upgrade it to Win2k3 Server
> 5. Then set up Active Directory on the new machine

Yes -- this is recommended way for domain controller upgrade.

> Can I not just put the server in running Windows 2003 Server and promote
> to
> PDC and go from there?

Put server where? In NT domain? NT 4.0 domain upgrade does not work like
that. You actually have to upgrade Windows NT 4.0 server to Windows Server
2003 and continue promoting it to domain controller.

> To make sure I understand you below, you're suggesting that I:
> 1. Get any HW that can run Windows 2003 server

Yes -- and once you have such (temporary) hardware install Windows NT 4.0
server on it.

> 2. do the steps I list above on that machine
> 3. then add the actual new server to the network and
> 4. promote it to PDC

Yes.

> 5. Advantages of doing it this way are that you don't get disadvantages
> rolling over from the computer formerly running NT4 server.

Sure. And in the end you have a clean installation on Windows Server 2003
that is now your primary domain controller running Windows Server 2003.
Security settings when doing upgrade or clean installation are different.
Also you are not limited any more by 4 GB System partition. I usually use
and recommend using System partitions in size of 20-30 GB,

> Sorry if these are basic Q's. I'm not qualified for what I have to do so
> would like to be clear. Appreciate your help.
>
> Thanks,
>
>
> "Miha Pihler [MVP]" wrote:
>
>> One of the main reasons here is that servers still running Windows NT
>> will
>> quite likely not be able to run Windows Server 2003 due to lack of system
>> resources.
>>
>> Another reason is that in the end you get clean installation of your new
>> Windows Server 2003 and not upgrade of old Windows NT server -- where you
>> will run out of disk space very soon since it had 4GB large boot
>> partition.
>>
>> Since you create your temporary server a PDC you can disconnect your old
>> hardware (now BDC) from network and have it as a backup in case something
>> goes wrong during the upgrade (e.g. I had a case when after the upgrade
>> Administrator could not logon to domain any more. Going back was very
>> easy
>> since I had original hardware and domain controller intact).
>>
>> Still -- you don't need completely new computer. You can use any
>> temporary
>> peace of hardware that is able to hold Windows Server 2003 for the time
>> being while you are doing upgrade. I have even done it using Virtual
>> Server
>> instead of additional hardware.
>>
>> I hope this helps,
>>
>> --
>> Mike
>> Microsoft MVP - Windows Security
>>
>> "Nick_Japan" <> wrote in message
>> news:0C5189AA-94C5-4CF1-9CEA-...
>> > Hi,
>> > I'm new with Windows Servers. Fairly familiar with UNIX machines but
>> > that's
>> > not going to help me here..
>> >
>> > I am trying to add a new server to replace the old hack that's there
>> > now,
>> > new guy will have Win2K3 on it.
>> >
>> > I plan to follow the following instructions -
>> > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...displaylang=en
>> >
>> > One thing - it mentions that I have to build the server as NT4.0 first
>> > and
>> > THEN upgrade to Win2K3 once it's in as the PDC. Why is this? (Partly
>> > for
>> > me
>> > to know but mostly so I can explain this to my boss). Is there a
>> > technical
>> > reason related to something conflicting?
>> >
>> > Thanks in advance.
>>
>>
>>

Hi Miha, my answers are marked #

> Is your current NT 4.0 server a domain controller or is it just a server?
##
It is the Domain Controller, there are no other Windows servers currently in
the domain.
##

> On what kind of software is your current Windows NT 4.0 domain controller running?
##
I'm sorry, what do you mean "kind of software"? OS?
##

> Advice in the article is for the upgrade of Windows NT 4.0 domain controller to Windows Server 2003 domain controller.
##
Understood. I want to leave the current DC running NT4.0, it will be a
failback option during this upgrade. I want to install a new server with
Windows 2003 Server on it as the DC.
##

> One limit on Windows NT was system partition size of 4 GB. Do you have enough space on the server (that partition) to do direct upgrade?
##
See above, aim is to replace the server with a new one. Existing server is
old and will eventually be retired
##

> NT 4.0 domain upgrade does not work like
> that. You actually have to upgrade Windows NT 4.0 server to Windows Server
> 2003 and continue promoting it to domain controller.
##
Thanks! Just for my curiosity, why is this? If it's not documented or would
waste your time to explain then please ignore this question.
##

> Sure. And in the end you have a clean installation on Windows Server 2003
> that is now your primary domain controller running Windows Server 2003.
> Security settings when doing upgrade or clean installation are different.
> Also you are not limited any more by 4 GB System partition. I usually use
> and recommend using System partitions in size of 20-30 GB,
##
Thanks! Will go with this plan.
One more question: Is there a point of no return for a domain upgrade? Ie,
once I put in the temp server, upgrade it to Win2K3, is it possible to go
roll back to the NT4.0 Server if there are issues?
##

Thanks for your help so far.



"Miha Pihler [MVP]" wrote:

> Hi Nick,
>
> Is your current NT 4.0 server a domain controller or is it just a server?
> What is role of this server? On what kind of software is your current
> Windows NT 4.0 domain controller running? Advice in the article is for the
> upgrade of Windows NT 4.0 domain controller to Windows Server 2003 domain
> controller.
>
> One limit on Windows NT was system partition size of 4 GB. Do you have
> enough space on the server (that partition) to do direct upgrade?
>
> Some additional comments are below
>
> --
> Mike
> Microsoft MVP - Windows Security
>
> <snip>
>
> > According to the instruction manual I linked below (Chapter 1, page 5, fig
> > 1.2), I believe I have to:
> > 1. install WinNT server first
> > 2. then put it into the network and make sure configurations are OK
> > 3. then promoted it to PDC
> > 4. Then upgrade it to Win2k3 Server
> > 5. Then set up Active Directory on the new machine
>
> Yes -- this is recommended way for domain controller upgrade.
>
> > Can I not just put the server in running Windows 2003 Server and promote
> > to
> > PDC and go from there?
>
> Put server where? In NT domain? NT 4.0 domain upgrade does not work like
> that. You actually have to upgrade Windows NT 4.0 server to Windows Server
> 2003 and continue promoting it to domain controller.
>
> > To make sure I understand you below, you're suggesting that I:
> > 1. Get any HW that can run Windows 2003 server
>
> Yes -- and once you have such (temporary) hardware install Windows NT 4.0
> server on it.
>
> > 2. do the steps I list above on that machine
> > 3. then add the actual new server to the network and
> > 4. promote it to PDC
>
> Yes.
>
> > 5. Advantages of doing it this way are that you don't get disadvantages
> > rolling over from the computer formerly running NT4 server.
>
> Sure. And in the end you have a clean installation on Windows Server 2003
> that is now your primary domain controller running Windows Server 2003.
> Security settings when doing upgrade or clean installation are different.
> Also you are not limited any more by 4 GB System partition. I usually use
> and recommend using System partitions in size of 20-30 GB,
>
> > Sorry if these are basic Q's. I'm not qualified for what I have to do so
> > would like to be clear. Appreciate your help.
> >
> > Thanks,
> >
> >
> > "Miha Pihler [MVP]" wrote:
> >
> >> One of the main reasons here is that servers still running Windows NT
> >> will
> >> quite likely not be able to run Windows Server 2003 due to lack of system
> >> resources.
> >>
> >> Another reason is that in the end you get clean installation of your new
> >> Windows Server 2003 and not upgrade of old Windows NT server -- where you
> >> will run out of disk space very soon since it had 4GB large boot
> >> partition.
> >>
> >> Since you create your temporary server a PDC you can disconnect your old
> >> hardware (now BDC) from network and have it as a backup in case something
> >> goes wrong during the upgrade (e.g. I had a case when after the upgrade
> >> Administrator could not logon to domain any more. Going back was very
> >> easy
> >> since I had original hardware and domain controller intact).
> >>
> >> Still -- you don't need completely new computer. You can use any
> >> temporary
> >> peace of hardware that is able to hold Windows Server 2003 for the time
> >> being while you are doing upgrade. I have even done it using Virtual
> >> Server
> >> instead of additional hardware.
> >>
> >> I hope this helps,
> >>
> >> --
> >> Mike
> >> Microsoft MVP - Windows Security
> >>
> >> "Nick_Japan" <> wrote in message
> >> news:0C5189AA-94C5-4CF1-9CEA-...
> >> > Hi,
> >> > I'm new with Windows Servers. Fairly familiar with UNIX machines but
> >> > that's
> >> > not going to help me here..
> >> >
> >> > I am trying to add a new server to replace the old hack that's there
> >> > now,
> >> > new guy will have Win2K3 on it.
> >> >
> >> > I plan to follow the following instructions -
> >> > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...displaylang=en
> >> >
> >> > One thing - it mentions that I have to build the server as NT4.0 first
> >> > and
> >> > THEN upgrade to Win2K3 once it's in as the PDC. Why is this? (Partly
> >> > for
> >> > me
> >> > to know but mostly so I can explain this to my boss). Is there a
> >> > technical
> >> > reason related to something conflicting?
> >> >
> >> > Thanks in advance.
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
>
>

Hi,

Some of my answers and in line...

"Nick_Japan" <> wrote in message
news:5B1842AF-5222-45F1-A0AB-...
> Hi Miha, my answers are marked #
>
>> Is your current NT 4.0 server a domain controller or is it just a server?
> ##
> It is the Domain Controller, there are no other Windows servers currently
> in
> the domain.
> ##
>
>> On what kind of software is your current Windows NT 4.0 domain controller
>> running?
> ##
> I'm sorry, what do you mean "kind of software"? OS?
> ##

Sorry -- I meant hardware - but you already answered my question.

>> Advice in the article is for the upgrade of Windows NT 4.0 domain
>> controller to Windows Server 2003 domain controller.
> ##
> Understood. I want to leave the current DC running NT4.0, it will be a
> failback option during this upgrade. I want to install a new server with
> Windows 2003 Server on it as the DC.
> ##

I understand. But to get to there you will either need to install Windows NT
4.0 on new hardware (I really don't recommend this option) or install
Windows NT 4.0 on temporary hardware. Now you promote this temporary server
a PDC and upgrade it to Windows Server 2003.
Again there are many reasons for not installing Windows Server 2003
directly. One of them again would be partition size limit. You don't want to
be stuck with 4 GB partition on new Windows Server 2003 (after the upgrade).
You should also not want ;-) to have Windows Server 2003 upgraded from
Windows NT 4.0 ;-).

>> One limit on Windows NT was system partition size of 4 GB. Do you have
>> enough space on the server (that partition) to do direct upgrade?
> ##
> See above, aim is to replace the server with a new one. Existing server is
> old and will eventually be retired
> ##
>
>> NT 4.0 domain upgrade does not work like
>> that. You actually have to upgrade Windows NT 4.0 server to Windows
>> Server
>> 2003 and continue promoting it to domain controller.
> ##
> Thanks! Just for my curiosity, why is this? If it's not documented or
> would
> waste your time to explain then please ignore this question.
> ##

This process of upgrade is well documented and has been the same since
Windows 2000. I really never asked myself why does it work this way - but
there are some major changes from NT to Windows Server 2003 (from NT domain
to Active Directory).
The process you describe would work if you were upgrading from Windows 2000
domain to Windows Server 2003 domain.

>> Sure. And in the end you have a clean installation on Windows Server 2003
>> that is now your primary domain controller running Windows Server 2003.
>> Security settings when doing upgrade or clean installation are different.
>> Also you are not limited any more by 4 GB System partition. I usually use
>> and recommend using System partitions in size of 20-30 GB,
> ##
> Thanks! Will go with this plan.
> One more question: Is there a point of no return for a domain upgrade? Ie,
> once I put in the temp server, upgrade it to Win2K3, is it possible to go
> roll back to the NT4.0 Server if there are issues?
> ##
Sure -- as soon as you will have Windows Server 2003 DC this could mean a
point of no return since clients (domain members) might be updated with new
information.

My advice since you will have temporary hardware available is to run a test
upgrade. I had once a problem with upgrade in a test environment. After the
upgrade Administrator account wasn't able to logon to the server any more.
Since this was a copy of production I could go back to production server and
change the settings.
You have to know that every domain could be configured a bit different. Some
are locked down well some are not lock down at all. This is why it can be
hard to give you 100% accurate advice and that is why I would like to stress
the importance of running this in test environment first.
>
> Thanks for your help so far.
>
>
>
> "Miha Pihler [MVP]" wrote:
>
>> Hi Nick,
>>
>> Is your current NT 4.0 server a domain controller or is it just a server?
>> What is role of this server? On what kind of software is your current
>> Windows NT 4.0 domain controller running? Advice in the article is for
>> the
>> upgrade of Windows NT 4.0 domain controller to Windows Server 2003 domain
>> controller.
>>
>> One limit on Windows NT was system partition size of 4 GB. Do you have
>> enough space on the server (that partition) to do direct upgrade?
>>
>> Some additional comments are below
>>
>> --
>> Mike
>> Microsoft MVP - Windows Security
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>> > According to the instruction manual I linked below (Chapter 1, page 5,
>> > fig
>> > 1.2), I believe I have to:
>> > 1. install WinNT server first
>> > 2. then put it into the network and make sure configurations are OK
>> > 3. then promoted it to PDC
>> > 4. Then upgrade it to Win2k3 Server
>> > 5. Then set up Active Directory on the new machine
>>
>> Yes -- this is recommended way for domain controller upgrade.
>>
>> > Can I not just put the server in running Windows 2003 Server and
>> > promote
>> > to
>> > PDC and go from there?
>>
>> Put server where? In NT domain? NT 4.0 domain upgrade does not work like
>> that. You actually have to upgrade Windows NT 4.0 server to Windows
>> Server
>> 2003 and continue promoting it to domain controller.
>>
>> > To make sure I understand you below, you're suggesting that I:
>> > 1. Get any HW that can run Windows 2003 server
>>
>> Yes -- and once you have such (temporary) hardware install Windows NT 4.0
>> server on it.
>>
>> > 2. do the steps I list above on that machine
>> > 3. then add the actual new server to the network and
>> > 4. promote it to PDC
>>
>> Yes.
>>
>> > 5. Advantages of doing it this way are that you don't get disadvantages
>> > rolling over from the computer formerly running NT4 server.
>>
>> Sure. And in the end you have a clean installation on Windows Server 2003
>> that is now your primary domain controller running Windows Server 2003.
>> Security settings when doing upgrade or clean installation are different.
>> Also you are not limited any more by 4 GB System partition. I usually use
>> and recommend using System partitions in size of 20-30 GB,
>>
>> > Sorry if these are basic Q's. I'm not qualified for what I have to do
>> > so
>> > would like to be clear. Appreciate your help.
>> >
>> > Thanks,
>> >
>> >
>> > "Miha Pihler [MVP]" wrote:
>> >
>> >> One of the main reasons here is that servers still running Windows NT
>> >> will
>> >> quite likely not be able to run Windows Server 2003 due to lack of
>> >> system
>> >> resources.
>> >>
>> >> Another reason is that in the end you get clean installation of your
>> >> new
>> >> Windows Server 2003 and not upgrade of old Windows NT server -- where
>> >> you
>> >> will run out of disk space very soon since it had 4GB large boot
>> >> partition.
>> >>
>> >> Since you create your temporary server a PDC you can disconnect your
>> >> old
>> >> hardware (now BDC) from network and have it as a backup in case
>> >> something
>> >> goes wrong during the upgrade (e.g. I had a case when after the
>> >> upgrade
>> >> Administrator could not logon to domain any more. Going back was very
>> >> easy
>> >> since I had original hardware and domain controller intact).
>> >>
>> >> Still -- you don't need completely new computer. You can use any
>> >> temporary
>> >> peace of hardware that is able to hold Windows Server 2003 for the
>> >> time
>> >> being while you are doing upgrade. I have even done it using Virtual
>> >> Server
>> >> instead of additional hardware.
>> >>
>> >> I hope this helps,
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Mike
>> >> Microsoft MVP - Windows Security
>> >>
>> >> "Nick_Japan" <> wrote in message
>> >> news:0C5189AA-94C5-4CF1-9CEA-...
>> >> > Hi,
>> >> > I'm new with Windows Servers. Fairly familiar with UNIX machines but
>> >> > that's
>> >> > not going to help me here..
>> >> >
>> >> > I am trying to add a new server to replace the old hack that's there
>> >> > now,
>> >> > new guy will have Win2K3 on it.
>> >> >
>> >> > I plan to follow the following instructions -
>> >> > http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/d...displaylang=en
>> >> >
>> >> > One thing - it mentions that I have to build the server as NT4.0
>> >> > first
>> >> > and
>> >> > THEN upgrade to Win2K3 once it's in as the PDC. Why is this? (Partly
>> >> > for
>> >> > me
>> >> > to know but mostly so I can explain this to my boss). Is there a
>> >> > technical
>> >> > reason related to something conflicting?
>> >> >
>> >> > Thanks in advance.
>> >>
>> >>
>> >>
>>
>>
>>