Vista License Activation and Ghost

I work in a software house where we have several MSDN users.
We run a test LAN, which will soon have several Vista test PCs.

Until now, (XP and earlier) we've used Symantec Ghost to create an image of
a (non-OEM) Windows installation on ONE PC.
We've then used that same Ghost image, to deploy to a pool of about 10 TEST
PCs (for TESTING only).
For ease of reference, I'll call these machines A through J.

These machines are re-imaged constantly - sometimes as many as 10 times a
day or more.
(We test against about 20 different languages of each operating system).



Now I know what you're all thinking...

Firstly, all the users of these machines (e.g. Persons A through E) are
licensed individually under the MSDN program.
Second, the MSDN program allows users to install their programs for
testing/development, which is what they are doing.

So, we feel this is legitimate use of the operating system. We've paid all
the necessary fees... it just saves each user creating their own individual
Ghost images.


With the recent release of Vista, we want to create images of Vista that
work in the same way. I.e. A Ghost image is created of a Windows Vista
installation on Machine A. We want to image that onto Machines B through J
for say half a day.

I understand that Machine A will activate with no problem. However, machines
B through J have different hardware IDs, so will cause Windows to need
activation. We assume that when these are activated, we will get the 'key
already in use' message and NOT activate these machines.


We've thought about installing a KMS server to handle internal activations
(we realise you need 25 machines or more for KMS to work, but will be
expanding!). However, having read through the various Microsoft docs (Step
by Step activation etc) about Vista activation, we understand that each KMS
machine will ONLY activate 6 machines a maximum of 10 times...... we could
easily break that barrier in one day.

Furthermore, because these machines are coming from images, it seems that 30
days after the Ghost image is CREATED, we have to go and rebuild a brand new
ACTIVATED Ghost image. Again, we can only do this so many times, because
each machine will only activate a number of times before it goes dead. Is
this really correct? Is there some way we can get round this?

I've read some comments about using Sysprep to generate a new ID, but I
assume this would use yet another license from our KMS pool. If we reghost
all the time, we'll keep using more and more licenses even though most of
the machines are no longer running.


After reading through the MS documents, I found they seem to contradict
themselves and I must say I'm completely lost.
I'm sure this is just my understanding, but I wondered if anybody else is
running a similar scenario and could tell us how they've set it up?

Alternatively, could somebody from Microsoft comment on the best practice
for this scenario?

Many thanks,

Jeff Whitehead
Network Administrator

Since you are constantly re-imaging, there is no need to
activate since Vista permits a 30-day grace period.

--
Carey Frisch
Microsoft MVP
Windows Shell/User

----------------------------------------------------------------------

"Jeff Whitehead" wrote:

I work in a software house where we have several MSDN users.
We run a test LAN, which will soon have several Vista test PCs.

Until now, (XP and earlier) we've used Symantec Ghost to create an image of
a (non-OEM) Windows installation on ONE PC.
We've then used that same Ghost image, to deploy to a pool of about 10 TEST
PCs (for TESTING only).
For ease of reference, I'll call these machines A through J.

These machines are re-imaged constantly - sometimes as many as 10 times a
day or more.
(We test against about 20 different languages of each operating system).



Now I know what you're all thinking...

Firstly, all the users of these machines (e.g. Persons A through E) are
licensed individually under the MSDN program.
Second, the MSDN program allows users to install their programs for
testing/development, which is what they are doing.

So, we feel this is legitimate use of the operating system. We've paid all
the necessary fees... it just saves each user creating their own individual
Ghost images.


With the recent release of Vista, we want to create images of Vista that
work in the same way. I.e. A Ghost image is created of a Windows Vista
installation on Machine A. We want to image that onto Machines B through J
for say half a day.

I understand that Machine A will activate with no problem. However, machines
B through J have different hardware IDs, so will cause Windows to need
activation. We assume that when these are activated, we will get the 'key
already in use' message and NOT activate these machines.


We've thought about installing a KMS server to handle internal activations
(we realise you need 25 machines or more for KMS to work, but will be
expanding!). However, having read through the various Microsoft docs (Step
by Step activation etc) about Vista activation, we understand that each KMS
machine will ONLY activate 6 machines a maximum of 10 times...... we could
easily break that barrier in one day.

Furthermore, because these machines are coming from images, it seems that 30
days after the Ghost image is CREATED, we have to go and rebuild a brand new
ACTIVATED Ghost image. Again, we can only do this so many times, because
each machine will only activate a number of times before it goes dead. Is
this really correct? Is there some way we can get round this?

I've read some comments about using Sysprep to generate a new ID, but I
assume this would use yet another license from our KMS pool. If we reghost
all the time, we'll keep using more and more licenses even though most of
the machines are no longer running.


After reading through the MS documents, I found they seem to contradict
themselves and I must say I'm completely lost.
I'm sure this is just my understanding, but I wondered if anybody else is
running a similar scenario and could tell us how they've set it up?

Alternatively, could somebody from Microsoft comment on the best practice
for this scenario?

Many thanks,

Jeff Whitehead
Network Administrator

Hi Carey,

Thanks for your quick response.

We thought this too, but I understand from our test team, that we are
finding the activation date is taken from when the image was first created
(stored) rather than when we last re-imaged using it.

So, if we create an image on (e.g.) 1st January, if we try to re-image onto
a PC using that same image on 1st March, we are well over the 30 days since
initial install, and so get the RFM.

Our images would ideally be reusable for the life of that hardware ... Maybe
5 years?

[Before you suggest it, resetting the PC clocks is not an option ;-) ]





So I think if we stuck with the 30-day grace period, we would need to
reinstall from scratch every time, in order to bring the install date up to
date?

That also is not an option, as we may only do five minutes testing before
having to start again with a clean install.



I suppose another workaround would be to create a new ghost from a clean
install every month, but that also is time consuming .... We need 20
different languages each all with different software installed, and in
future different combinations of Service Packs, so we'll be rebuilding
probably 100 images every month... Also not an option...

Thanks again for any suggestions. I'm sure we're not the only test team in
this scenario.

Jeff Whitehead

Network Administrator



"Carey Frisch [MVP]" <> wrote in message
news:0137AFA5-C8C8-4B18-8D58-...
> Since you are constantly re-imaging, there is no need to
> activate since Vista permits a 30-day grace period.
>
> --
> Carey Frisch
> Microsoft MVP
> Windows Shell/User
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>
> "Jeff Whitehead" wrote:
>
> I work in a software house where we have several MSDN users.
> We run a test LAN, which will soon have several Vista test PCs.
>
> Until now, (XP and earlier) we've used Symantec Ghost to create an image
> of
> a (non-OEM) Windows installation on ONE PC.
> We've then used that same Ghost image, to deploy to a pool of about 10
> TEST
> PCs (for TESTING only).
> For ease of reference, I'll call these machines A through J.
>
> These machines are re-imaged constantly - sometimes as many as 10 times a
> day or more.
> (We test against about 20 different languages of each operating system).
>
>
>
> Now I know what you're all thinking...
>
> Firstly, all the users of these machines (e.g. Persons A through E) are
> licensed individually under the MSDN program.
> Second, the MSDN program allows users to install their programs for
> testing/development, which is what they are doing.
>
> So, we feel this is legitimate use of the operating system. We've paid all
> the necessary fees... it just saves each user creating their own
> individual
> Ghost images.
>
>
> With the recent release of Vista, we want to create images of Vista that
> work in the same way. I.e. A Ghost image is created of a Windows Vista
> installation on Machine A. We want to image that onto Machines B through J
> for say half a day.
>
> I understand that Machine A will activate with no problem. However,
> machines
> B through J have different hardware IDs, so will cause Windows to need
> activation. We assume that when these are activated, we will get the 'key
> already in use' message and NOT activate these machines.
>
>
> We've thought about installing a KMS server to handle internal activations
> (we realise you need 25 machines or more for KMS to work, but will be
> expanding!). However, having read through the various Microsoft docs (Step
> by Step activation etc) about Vista activation, we understand that each
> KMS
> machine will ONLY activate 6 machines a maximum of 10 times...... we could
> easily break that barrier in one day.
>
> Furthermore, because these machines are coming from images, it seems that
> 30
> days after the Ghost image is CREATED, we have to go and rebuild a brand
> new
> ACTIVATED Ghost image. Again, we can only do this so many times, because
> each machine will only activate a number of times before it goes dead. Is
> this really correct? Is there some way we can get round this?
>
> I've read some comments about using Sysprep to generate a new ID, but I
> assume this would use yet another license from our KMS pool. If we reghost
> all the time, we'll keep using more and more licenses even though most of
> the machines are no longer running.
>
>
> After reading through the MS documents, I found they seem to contradict
> themselves and I must say I'm completely lost.
> I'm sure this is just my understanding, but I wondered if anybody else is
> running a similar scenario and could tell us how they've set it up?
>
> Alternatively, could somebody from Microsoft comment on the best practice
> for this scenario?
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Jeff Whitehead
> Network Administrator
>
>

Carey Frisch [MVP] wrote:

> Since you are constantly re-imaging, there is no need to
> activate since Vista permits a 30-day grace period.
>
He explained his problem and you obviously are incapable of reading it and
understanding it. Another MVP that is dumber than a bag of hammers.

Cheers.

--

Proprietary Software: a 20th Century software business model.

But at least Carey did try to help. Have you any solution NoStop?

Thanks anyway.


"NoStop" <> wrote in message
news8Dzi.89852$rX4.81964@pd7urf2no...
> Carey Frisch [MVP] wrote:
>
>> Since you are constantly re-imaging, there is no need to
>> activate since Vista permits a 30-day grace period.
>>
> He explained his problem and you obviously are incapable of reading it and
> understanding it. Another MVP that is dumber than a bag of hammers.
>
> Cheers.
>
> --
>
> Proprietary Software: a 20th Century software business model.
>
>
>
>
>

I had the same experience with WXP. The clock started on the date of WXP
install, not on date of first boot from the image of that install (which had
never gone through its first bootup, much less activation).

-Paul Randall

"Jeff Whitehead" <> wrote in
message news:Og%...
> Hi Carey,
>
> Thanks for your quick response.
>
> We thought this too, but I understand from our test team, that we are
> finding the activation date is taken from when the image was first created
> (stored) rather than when we last re-imaged using it.
>
> So, if we create an image on (e.g.) 1st January, if we try to re-image
> onto a PC using that same image on 1st March, we are well over the 30 days
> since initial install, and so get the RFM.
>
> Our images would ideally be reusable for the life of that hardware ...
> Maybe 5 years?
>
> [Before you suggest it, resetting the PC clocks is not an option ;-) ]
>
>
>
>
>
> So I think if we stuck with the 30-day grace period, we would need to
> reinstall from scratch every time, in order to bring the install date up
> to date?
>
> That also is not an option, as we may only do five minutes testing before
> having to start again with a clean install.
>
>
>
> I suppose another workaround would be to create a new ghost from a clean
> install every month, but that also is time consuming .... We need 20
> different languages each all with different software installed, and in
> future different combinations of Service Packs, so we'll be rebuilding
> probably 100 images every month... Also not an option...
>
> Thanks again for any suggestions. I'm sure we're not the only test team in
> this scenario.
>
> Jeff Whitehead
>
> Network Administrator
>
>
>
> "Carey Frisch [MVP]" <> wrote in message
> news:0137AFA5-C8C8-4B18-8D58-...
>> Since you are constantly re-imaging, there is no need to
>> activate since Vista permits a 30-day grace period.
>>
>> --
>> Carey Frisch
>> Microsoft MVP
>> Windows Shell/User
>>
>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> "Jeff Whitehead" wrote:
>>
>> I work in a software house where we have several MSDN users.
>> We run a test LAN, which will soon have several Vista test PCs.
>>
>> Until now, (XP and earlier) we've used Symantec Ghost to create an image
>> of
>> a (non-OEM) Windows installation on ONE PC.
>> We've then used that same Ghost image, to deploy to a pool of about 10
>> TEST
>> PCs (for TESTING only).
>> For ease of reference, I'll call these machines A through J.
>>
>> These machines are re-imaged constantly - sometimes as many as 10 times a
>> day or more.
>> (We test against about 20 different languages of each operating system).
>>
>>
>>
>> Now I know what you're all thinking...
>>
>> Firstly, all the users of these machines (e.g. Persons A through E) are
>> licensed individually under the MSDN program.
>> Second, the MSDN program allows users to install their programs for
>> testing/development, which is what they are doing.
>>
>> So, we feel this is legitimate use of the operating system. We've paid
>> all
>> the necessary fees... it just saves each user creating their own
>> individual
>> Ghost images.
>>
>>
>> With the recent release of Vista, we want to create images of Vista that
>> work in the same way. I.e. A Ghost image is created of a Windows Vista
>> installation on Machine A. We want to image that onto Machines B through
>> J
>> for say half a day.
>>
>> I understand that Machine A will activate with no problem. However,
>> machines
>> B through J have different hardware IDs, so will cause Windows to need
>> activation. We assume that when these are activated, we will get the 'key
>> already in use' message and NOT activate these machines.
>>
>>
>> We've thought about installing a KMS server to handle internal
>> activations
>> (we realise you need 25 machines or more for KMS to work, but will be
>> expanding!). However, having read through the various Microsoft docs
>> (Step
>> by Step activation etc) about Vista activation, we understand that each
>> KMS
>> machine will ONLY activate 6 machines a maximum of 10 times...... we
>> could
>> easily break that barrier in one day.
>>
>> Furthermore, because these machines are coming from images, it seems that
>> 30
>> days after the Ghost image is CREATED, we have to go and rebuild a brand
>> new
>> ACTIVATED Ghost image. Again, we can only do this so many times, because
>> each machine will only activate a number of times before it goes dead. Is
>> this really correct? Is there some way we can get round this?
>>
>> I've read some comments about using Sysprep to generate a new ID, but I
>> assume this would use yet another license from our KMS pool. If we
>> reghost
>> all the time, we'll keep using more and more licenses even though most of
>> the machines are no longer running.
>>
>>
>> After reading through the MS documents, I found they seem to contradict
>> themselves and I must say I'm completely lost.
>> I'm sure this is just my understanding, but I wondered if anybody else is
>> running a similar scenario and could tell us how they've set it up?
>>
>> Alternatively, could somebody from Microsoft comment on the best practice
>> for this scenario?
>>
>> Many thanks,
>>
>> Jeff Whitehead
>> Network Administrator
>>
>>
>
>

Frankly, there is no "best" solution for this problem, I fear. Windows
Vista does not take well at all to repeated imaging/installing/activating
scenarios like this. Frankly I think your best bet will be to take part of
Carey's suggestion (30-day eval period) and instead of using imaging, use
scripted installation and deployment tools to roll out each PC instead. I
don't know of a single other way you can accomplish what you want to do.

--
Richard G. Harper [MVP Shell/User]
* NEW! Catch my blog ... http://msmvps.com/blogs/rgharper/
* PLEASE post all messages and replies in the newsgroups
* The Website - http://rgharper.mvps.org/
* HELP us help YOU ... http://www.dts-l.org/goodpost.htm


"Jeff Whitehead" <> wrote in
message news:%23m$...
>I work in a software house where we have several MSDN users.
> We run a test LAN, which will soon have several Vista test PCs.
>
> Until now, (XP and earlier) we've used Symantec Ghost to create an image
> of a (non-OEM) Windows installation on ONE PC.
> We've then used that same Ghost image, to deploy to a pool of about 10
> TEST PCs (for TESTING only).
> For ease of reference, I'll call these machines A through J.
>
> These machines are re-imaged constantly - sometimes as many as 10 times a
> day or more.
> (We test against about 20 different languages of each operating system).
>
>
>
> Now I know what you're all thinking...
>
> Firstly, all the users of these machines (e.g. Persons A through E) are
> licensed individually under the MSDN program.
> Second, the MSDN program allows users to install their programs for
> testing/development, which is what they are doing.
>
> So, we feel this is legitimate use of the operating system. We've paid all
> the necessary fees... it just saves each user creating their own
> individual Ghost images.
>
>
> With the recent release of Vista, we want to create images of Vista that
> work in the same way. I.e. A Ghost image is created of a Windows Vista
> installation on Machine A. We want to image that onto Machines B through J
> for say half a day.
>
> I understand that Machine A will activate with no problem. However,
> machines B through J have different hardware IDs, so will cause Windows to
> need activation. We assume that when these are activated, we will get the
> 'key already in use' message and NOT activate these machines.
>
>
> We've thought about installing a KMS server to handle internal activations
> (we realise you need 25 machines or more for KMS to work, but will be
> expanding!). However, having read through the various Microsoft docs (Step
> by Step activation etc) about Vista activation, we understand that each
> KMS machine will ONLY activate 6 machines a maximum of 10 times...... we
> could easily break that barrier in one day.
>
> Furthermore, because these machines are coming from images, it seems that
> 30 days after the Ghost image is CREATED, we have to go and rebuild a
> brand new ACTIVATED Ghost image. Again, we can only do this so many times,
> because each machine will only activate a number of times before it goes
> dead. Is this really correct? Is there some way we can get round this?
>
> I've read some comments about using Sysprep to generate a new ID, but I
> assume this would use yet another license from our KMS pool. If we reghost
> all the time, we'll keep using more and more licenses even though most of
> the machines are no longer running.
>
>
> After reading through the MS documents, I found they seem to contradict
> themselves and I must say I'm completely lost.
> I'm sure this is just my understanding, but I wondered if anybody else is
> running a similar scenario and could tell us how they've set it up?
>
> Alternatively, could somebody from Microsoft comment on the best practice
> for this scenario?
>
> Many thanks,
>
> Jeff Whitehead
> Network Administrator
>
>

Richard G. Harper wrote:
> Frankly, there is no "best" solution for this problem, I fear. Windows
> Vista does not take well at all to repeated
> imaging/installing/activating scenarios like this. Frankly I think your
> best bet will be to take part of Carey's suggestion (30-day eval period)
> and instead of using imaging, use scripted installation and deployment
> tools to roll out each PC instead. I don't know of a single other way
> you can accomplish what you want to do.
>

Best I can think of myself (and this is more of a work around as opposed
to real solution...)

Extend your use of Vista 120 days without activating:

http://www.petri.co.il/extend_window..._slmgr_vbs.htm

--
Priceless quotes in m.p.w.vista.general group:
http://protectfreedom.tripod.com/kick.html

"Only religious fanatics and totalitarian states equate morality with
legality."
- Linus Torvalds

Jeff Whitehead wrote:

> But at least Carey did try to help. Have you any solution NoStop?
>
> Thanks anyway.
>
Sure. Found a solution a long time ago. (see my sig). At least my way works.
Carey's way, doesn't, does it?

Cheers.

>
> "NoStop" <> wrote in message
> news8Dzi.89852$rX4.81964@pd7urf2no...
>> Carey Frisch [MVP] wrote:
>>
>>> Since you are constantly re-imaging, there is no need to
>>> activate since Vista permits a 30-day grace period.
>>>
>> He explained his problem and you obviously are incapable of reading it
>> and understanding it. Another MVP that is dumber than a bag of hammers.
>>
>> Cheers.
>>
>> --
>>
>> Proprietary Software: a 20th Century software business model.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

--
Remove Vista Activation Completely ...
http://tinyurl.com/2w8qqo

"Jeff Whitehead" <> wrote:

>[test environment with lots of machines frequently reimaged]

> With the recent release of Vista, we want to create images of Vista that
> work in the same way. I.e. A Ghost image is created of a Windows Vista
> installation on Machine A. We want to image that onto Machines B through J
> for say half a day.

I don't see any reference in your posting to using sysprep, which your
scenario seems to call for. Build a master image, generalize it with
sysprep /audit and archive that copy; this becomes the starting point for
each testbed iteration. Blow it onto A, configure your current test setup,
then run sysprep /generalize /oobe to create another distribution image,
ghost that (or use imagex), and use the ghost (or WIM) file to provision B
through J. This should restart the 30-day clock.


> We've thought about installing a KMS server to handle internal activations
> (we realise you need 25 machines or more for KMS to work, but will be
> expanding!). However, having read through the various Microsoft docs (Step
> by Step activation etc) about Vista activation, we understand that each
> KMS machine will ONLY activate 6 machines a maximum of 10 times...... we
> could easily break that barrier in one day.

Are your MSDN builds derived from volume license media? All the info I've
seen from MS indicates that a KMS box works only with volume media, not
retail or OEM. (I work exclusively with VL media, so can't offer direct
experience with the behavior of retail/oem media.)

And I've not seen anything about a limitation of activating "6 machines 10
times". That doesn't make sense since KMS-activated machines will start
asking for reactivation a month after the previous activation; that would
deplete the "10 times" limit rather quickly. Were you by any chance
thinking of the limit on the use of the KMS product ID, the sole function of
which is to install the KMS service itself, and which has very low
activation limits?

BTW: the 25-machine minimum for KMS is for *REAL* machines. KMS can be used
to activate a virtual machine, but a virtual machine can't contribute to the
n-count that has to be 25 or above.


> I've read some comments about using Sysprep to generate a new ID, but I
> assume this would use yet another license from our KMS pool. If we reghost
> all the time, we'll keep using more and more licenses even though most of
> the machines are no longer running.

There isn't a "KMS pool". If a machine is eligible for KMS activation, it
can be activated by any KMS (it doesn't even have to be your KMS box), and
the KMS box can activate an unlimited number of systems.

The "pool" you're probably thinking of is the MAK (the poorly-named
"Multiple Activation Key") which is assigned to volume customers. Despite
its name the MAK doesn't do activation; it is a single product ID key which
can be used on multiple machines, each of which can subsequently be
activated by the traditional ET-phone-home technique of contacting a
Microsoft server. Volume customers are given a number of activations (based
on their license count) which can be performed using the assigned key;
Microsoft says that a customer who runs out of the activations can request
that the limit be increased.

Machines to be activated by KMS must not be configured with a key other than
the one that's hard-coded into the Microsoft media. IOW, you don't use the
MAK on a machine which is to be activated by your KMS, so there isn't any
decrementing of the MAK counter.

Your email address indicates that you work for Canon Europe. I would expect
that Canon holds a volume license, so your MSDN copies of Vista Business are
probably volume-license versions; only Business and Enterprise are available
in volume media. You might be able to work with your corporate IT
department (which presumably administers the volume license agreement) to
establish a KMS on your internal network. Alternatively, find out who is
the Microsoft technical account manager for your account and see if MS has a
mechanism to keep your MAK count replinished. If you're using non-VL media
I would suggest calling the MSDN customer service folk to see what can be
done to keep your product IDs from overrunning their activation count limit.

And, as someone pointed out elsewhere in this thread, if your machines will
routinely be reimaged before the 30-day activation time bomb goes off then
the issue of activation is finessed as long as you've used sysprep properly.

Sigh. There's a tidal wave of documentation from Microsoft that talks about
how to package and deploy Vista...but somehow it seems that none of the
documents directly address our specific needs and we have to stitch together
the pieces of a half-dozen different documents and hope that it works...

Joe Morris