Vista Windows updates gone

last time I check windows update in my Vista Ultimate (week ago) there are
about 18 optional updates listed in windows update (language pack & ultimate
extras).
And I checked again early this week, they are all gone!!!! windows update
just simply tells me that there are no updates available to download at this
time. No ultimate extras too. Those updates just gone.....
I didn't hidde any updates, and last update I installed is Windows Defender
update at 24/02/2007 KB915597 (Definithion 1.15.2323.1)

I have checked "check for update" many times.. still tells me that "No New
updates are available for your compter." "No new Windows Ultimate Extras are
available for your computer at this time. Please check back regularly to take
full advantage of Windows Ultimate Extras as more offerings are added."

I am using Genuine OEM verison, and I have activated it long time ago

Hi,
Please see if there are any errors in C:\Windows\Windowsupdate.log
during the time you attempted to scan for updates.

Please post the contents of the log file and I can check if there are
errors.

--
Sudheer GN
Microsoft, WU Client


This posting is provided "As Is" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
Use of included script samples are subject to the terms specified at
http://www.microsoft.com/info/cpyright.htm




"James" <> wrote in message
news:0137674A-440A-4C52-90A5-...
> last time I check windows update in my Vista Ultimate (week ago) there are
> about 18 optional updates listed in windows update (language pack &
> ultimate
> extras).
> And I checked again early this week, they are all gone!!!! windows update
> just simply tells me that there are no updates available to download at
> this
> time. No ultimate extras too. Those updates just gone.....
> I didn't hidde any updates, and last update I installed is Windows
> Defender
> update at 24/02/2007 KB915597 (Definithion 1.15.2323.1)
>
> I have checked "check for update" many times.. still tells me that "No New
> updates are available for your compter." "No new Windows Ultimate Extras
> are
> available for your computer at this time. Please check back regularly to
> take
> full advantage of Windows Ultimate Extras as more offerings are added."
>
> I am using Genuine OEM verison, and I have activated it long time ago

Thank you Sudheer, Here is my Windowsupdate.log for today
Please help

2007-03-04 08:38:52:547 1156 d38 Shutdwn user declined update at shutdown
2007-03-04 08:38:52:547 1156 d38 AU AU initiates service shutdown
2007-03-04 08:38:52:547 1156 d38 AU ########### AU: Uninitializing
Automatic Updates ###########
2007-03-04 08:38:52:954 1156 d38 Service *********
2007-03-04 08:38:52:954 1156 d38 Service ** END ** Service: Service exit
[Exit code = 0x240001]
2007-03-04 08:38:52:954 1156 d38 Service *************
2007-03-04 13:54:12:815 1132 710 Misc =========== Logging initialized
(build: 6.0.6000.16386, tz: +1100) ===========
2007-03-04 13:54:12:815 1132 710 Misc = Process:
C:\Windows\system32\svchost.exe
2007-03-04 13:54:12:815 1132 710 Misc = Module:
c:\windows\system32\wuaueng.dll
2007-03-04 13:54:12:815 1132 710 Service *************
2007-03-04 13:54:12:815 1132 710 Service ** START ** Service: Service startup
2007-03-04 13:54:12:815 1132 710 Service *********
2007-03-04 13:54:12:817 1132 710 Agent * WU client version 6.0.6000.16386
2007-03-04 13:54:12:817 1132 710 Agent * Base directory:
C:\Windows\SoftwareDistribution
2007-03-04 13:54:12:817 1132 710 Agent * Access type: No proxy
2007-03-04 13:54:12:819 1132 710 Agent * Network state: Connected
2007-03-04 13:54:12:904 1132 328 Agent *********** Agent: Initializing
Windows Update Agent ***********
2007-03-04 13:54:12:904 1132 328 Agent *********** Agent: Initializing
global settings cache ***********
2007-03-04 13:54:12:904 1132 328 Agent * WSUS server: <NULL>
2007-03-04 13:54:12:904 1132 328 Agent * WSUS status server: <NULL>
2007-03-04 13:54:12:904 1132 710 Report *********** Report: Initializing
static reporting data ***********
2007-03-04 13:54:12:904 1132 328 Agent * Target group: (Unassigned
Computers)
2007-03-04 13:54:12:904 1132 328 Agent * Windows Update access disabled: No
2007-03-04 13:54:12:904 1132 710 Report * OS Version = 6.0.6000.0.0.65792
2007-03-04 13:54:12:904 1132 710 Report * OS Product Type = 0x00000001
2007-03-04 13:54:12:961 1132 710 Report * Computer Brand = ASUSTeK
Computer Inc.
2007-03-04 13:54:12:961 1132 710 Report * Computer Model = G1

2007-03-04 13:54:12:964 1132 710 Report * Bios Revision = G1AS.204
2007-03-04 13:54:12:964 1132 710 Report * Bios Name = Default System BIOS
2007-03-04 13:54:12:964 1132 710 Report * Bios Release Date =
2006-10-26T00:00:00
2007-03-04 13:54:12:964 1132 710 Report * Locale ID = 3081
2007-03-04 13:54:13:108 1132 328 DnldMgr Download manager restoring 0
downloads
2007-03-04 13:54:13:138 1132 328 AU ########### AU: Initializing Automatic
Updates ###########
2007-03-04 13:54:13:138 1132 328 AU # Approval type: Pre-install notify
(User preference)
2007-03-04 13:54:13:138 1132 328 AU # Auto-install minor updates: No (User
preference)
2007-03-04 13:54:13:278 1132 328 AU AU finished delayed initialization
2007-03-04 13:54:14:931 1132 328 AU Triggering AU detection through
DetectNow API
2007-03-04 13:54:14:931 1132 328 AU Triggering Online detection (interactive)
2007-03-04 13:54:14:931 1132 710 AU #############
2007-03-04 13:54:14:931 1132 710 AU ## START ## AU: Search for updates
2007-03-04 13:54:14:931 1132 710 AU #########
2007-03-04 13:54:14:939 1132 710 AU <<## SUBMITTED ## AU: Search for updates
[CallId = {E59F7C69-AB87-4195-BB01-EC4140585691}]
2007-03-04 13:54:14:939 1132 b30 Agent *************
2007-03-04 13:54:14:939 1132 b30 Agent ** START ** Agent: Finding updates
[CallerId = AutomaticUpdates]
2007-03-04 13:54:14:939 1132 b30 Agent *********
2007-03-04 13:54:14:945 1132 b30 Setup Checking for agent SelfUpdate
2007-03-04 13:54:14:946 1132 b30 Setup Client version: Core: 6.0.6000.16386
Aux: 6.0.6000.16386
2007-03-04 13:54:15:647 1132 b30 Setup Skipping SelfUpdate check based on
the /SKIP directive in wuident
2007-03-04 13:54:15:647 1132 b30 Setup SelfUpdate check completed.
SelfUpdate is NOT required.
2007-03-04 13:54:18:389 1132 b30 PT +++++++++++ PT: Synchronizing server
updates +++++++++++
2007-03-04 13:54:18:389 1132 b30 PT + ServiceId =
{7971F918-A847-4430-9279-4A52D1EFE18D}, Server URL =
https://update.microsoft.com/v6/Clie...ce/client.asmx
2007-03-04 13:54:20:999 1132 b30 Agent * Found 0 updates and 22 categories
in search
2007-03-04 13:54:21:001 1132 b30 Agent *********
2007-03-04 13:54:21:001 1132 b30 Agent ** END ** Agent: Finding updates
[CallerId = AutomaticUpdates]
2007-03-04 13:54:21:001 1132 b30 Agent *************
2007-03-04 13:54:21:001 1132 2d0 AU >>## RESUMED ## AU: Search for updates
[CallId = {E59F7C69-AB87-4195-BB01-EC4140585691}]
2007-03-04 13:54:21:001 1132 2d0 AU # 0 updates detected
2007-03-04 13:54:21:002 1132 2d0 AU #########
2007-03-04 13:54:21:002 1132 2d0 AU ## END ## AU: Search for updates
[CallId = {E59F7C69-AB87-4195-BB01-EC4140585691}]
2007-03-04 13:54:21:002 1132 2d0 AU #############
2007-03-04 13:54:21:002 1132 2d0 AU AU setting next detection timeout to
2007-03-04 23:56:52
2007-03-04 13:54:26:030 1132 984 Report REPORT EVENT:
{B36C9D84-3F40-4F6A-8E9F-FE9A8B3D6316} 2007-03-04
13:54:20:999+1100 1 147 101 {00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000} 0 0 AutomaticUpdates Success Software
Synchronization Windows Update Client successfully detected 0 updates.
2007-03-04 13:54:26:030 1132 984 Report REPORT EVENT:
{A35C5187-2AEA-481F-8921-890470FDDE1E} 2007-03-04
13:54:20:999+1100 1 154 101 {00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000} 0 0 AutomaticUpdates Failure Software Synchronization Client has an invalid Pid.






"Sudheer GN [MSFT]" wrote:

> Hi,
> Please see if there are any errors in C:\Windows\Windowsupdate.log
> during the time you attempted to scan for updates.
>
> Please post the contents of the log file and I can check if there are
> errors.
>
> --
> Sudheer GN
> Microsoft, WU Client
>
>
> This posting is provided "As Is" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
> Use of included script samples are subject to the terms specified at
> http://www.microsoft.com/info/cpyright.htm
>
>
>
>
> "James" <> wrote in message
> news:0137674A-440A-4C52-90A5-...
> > last time I check windows update in my Vista Ultimate (week ago) there are
> > about 18 optional updates listed in windows update (language pack &
> > ultimate
> > extras).
> > And I checked again early this week, they are all gone!!!! windows update
> > just simply tells me that there are no updates available to download at
> > this
> > time. No ultimate extras too. Those updates just gone.....
> > I didn't hidde any updates, and last update I installed is Windows
> > Defender
> > update at 24/02/2007 KB915597 (Definithion 1.15.2323.1)
> >
> > I have checked "check for update" many times.. still tells me that "No New
> > updates are available for your compter." "No new Windows Ultimate Extras
> > are
> > available for your computer at this time. Please check back regularly to
> > take
> > full advantage of Windows Ultimate Extras as more offerings are added."
> >
> > I am using Genuine OEM verison, and I have activated it long time ago
>
>

Hi, can someone provide help on this issue?
Thank you

Hi James,

Sorry for the delay in response. We need more information to further
investigate your issue. Can you please follow the directions below and send
me the log files directly to me via email. You can get my email address by
removing "online." from my email address that is displayed here.

Open an Administrator command prompt by right clicking on Start -> All
Programs -> Accessories -> Command Prompt and selecting "Run as
Administrator" and clicking "Allow" for the elevation prompt
In the command prompt, type the commands below
1. reg add
HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Win dowsUpdate\Trace /v Flags
/t REG_DWORD /d 0x16
2. reg add
HKLM\Software\Microsoft\Windows\CurrentVersion\Win dowsUpdate\Trace /v Level
/t REG_DWORD /d 0x4
3. net stop wuauserv & net start wuauserv

The above commands enable verbose WU logging
After this, please scan for updates again.
If you still see 0 updates being offered, please send me via email
1. C:\windows\Windowsupdate.log file
2. Run the following command in Administrator command prompt and send me the
output
cscript %windir%\system32\slmgr.vbs -dlv

--
Sudheer GN
Microsoft, WU Client


This posting is provided "As Is" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
Use of included script samples are subject to the terms specified at
http://www.microsoft.com/info/cpyright.htm

"James" <> wrote in message
news:809FCF1D-8B2C-48CE-BE24-...
> Thank you Sudheer, Here is my Windowsupdate.log for today
> Please help
>
> 2007-03-04 08:38:52:547 1156 d38 Shutdwn user declined update at shutdown
> 2007-03-04 08:38:52:547 1156 d38 AU AU initiates service shutdown
> 2007-03-04 08:38:52:547 1156 d38 AU ########### AU: Uninitializing
> Automatic Updates ###########
> 2007-03-04 08:38:52:954 1156 d38 Service *********
> 2007-03-04 08:38:52:954 1156 d38 Service ** END ** Service: Service
> exit
> [Exit code = 0x240001]
> 2007-03-04 08:38:52:954 1156 d38 Service *************
> 2007-03-04 13:54:12:815 1132 710 Misc =========== Logging initialized
> (build: 6.0.6000.16386, tz: +1100) ===========
> 2007-03-04 13:54:12:815 1132 710 Misc = Process:
> C:\Windows\system32\svchost.exe
> 2007-03-04 13:54:12:815 1132 710 Misc = Module:
> c:\windows\system32\wuaueng.dll
> 2007-03-04 13:54:12:815 1132 710 Service *************
> 2007-03-04 13:54:12:815 1132 710 Service ** START ** Service: Service
> startup
> 2007-03-04 13:54:12:815 1132 710 Service *********
> 2007-03-04 13:54:12:817 1132 710 Agent * WU client version
> 6.0.6000.16386
> 2007-03-04 13:54:12:817 1132 710 Agent * Base directory:
> C:\Windows\SoftwareDistribution
> 2007-03-04 13:54:12:817 1132 710 Agent * Access type: No proxy
> 2007-03-04 13:54:12:819 1132 710 Agent * Network state: Connected
> 2007-03-04 13:54:12:904 1132 328 Agent *********** Agent: Initializing
> Windows Update Agent ***********
> 2007-03-04 13:54:12:904 1132 328 Agent *********** Agent: Initializing
> global settings cache ***********
> 2007-03-04 13:54:12:904 1132 328 Agent * WSUS server: <NULL>
> 2007-03-04 13:54:12:904 1132 328 Agent * WSUS status server: <NULL>
> 2007-03-04 13:54:12:904 1132 710 Report *********** Report: Initializing
> static reporting data ***********
> 2007-03-04 13:54:12:904 1132 328 Agent * Target group: (Unassigned
> Computers)
> 2007-03-04 13:54:12:904 1132 328 Agent * Windows Update access disabled:
> No
> 2007-03-04 13:54:12:904 1132 710 Report * OS Version =
> 6.0.6000.0.0.65792
> 2007-03-04 13:54:12:904 1132 710 Report * OS Product Type = 0x00000001
> 2007-03-04 13:54:12:961 1132 710 Report * Computer Brand = ASUSTeK
> Computer Inc.
> 2007-03-04 13:54:12:961 1132 710 Report * Computer Model = G1
>
> 2007-03-04 13:54:12:964 1132 710 Report * Bios Revision = G1AS.204
> 2007-03-04 13:54:12:964 1132 710 Report * Bios Name = Default System
> BIOS
> 2007-03-04 13:54:12:964 1132 710 Report * Bios Release Date =
> 2006-10-26T00:00:00
> 2007-03-04 13:54:12:964 1132 710 Report * Locale ID = 3081
> 2007-03-04 13:54:13:108 1132 328 DnldMgr Download manager restoring 0
> downloads
> 2007-03-04 13:54:13:138 1132 328 AU ########### AU: Initializing
> Automatic
> Updates ###########
> 2007-03-04 13:54:13:138 1132 328 AU # Approval type: Pre-install notify
> (User preference)
> 2007-03-04 13:54:13:138 1132 328 AU # Auto-install minor updates: No
> (User
> preference)
> 2007-03-04 13:54:13:278 1132 328 AU AU finished delayed initialization
> 2007-03-04 13:54:14:931 1132 328 AU Triggering AU detection through
> DetectNow API
> 2007-03-04 13:54:14:931 1132 328 AU Triggering Online detection
> (interactive)
> 2007-03-04 13:54:14:931 1132 710 AU #############
> 2007-03-04 13:54:14:931 1132 710 AU ## START ## AU: Search for updates
> 2007-03-04 13:54:14:931 1132 710 AU #########
> 2007-03-04 13:54:14:939 1132 710 AU <<## SUBMITTED ## AU: Search for
> updates
> [CallId = {E59F7C69-AB87-4195-BB01-EC4140585691}]
> 2007-03-04 13:54:14:939 1132 b30 Agent *************
> 2007-03-04 13:54:14:939 1132 b30 Agent ** START ** Agent: Finding updates
> [CallerId = AutomaticUpdates]
> 2007-03-04 13:54:14:939 1132 b30 Agent *********
> 2007-03-04 13:54:14:945 1132 b30 Setup Checking for agent SelfUpdate
> 2007-03-04 13:54:14:946 1132 b30 Setup Client version: Core:
> 6.0.6000.16386
> Aux: 6.0.6000.16386
> 2007-03-04 13:54:15:647 1132 b30 Setup Skipping SelfUpdate check based on
> the /SKIP directive in wuident
> 2007-03-04 13:54:15:647 1132 b30 Setup SelfUpdate check completed.
> SelfUpdate is NOT required.
> 2007-03-04 13:54:18:389 1132 b30 PT +++++++++++ PT: Synchronizing server
> updates +++++++++++
> 2007-03-04 13:54:18:389 1132 b30 PT + ServiceId =
> {7971F918-A847-4430-9279-4A52D1EFE18D}, Server URL =
> https://update.microsoft.com/v6/Clie...ce/client.asmx
> 2007-03-04 13:54:20:999 1132 b30 Agent * Found 0 updates and 22
> categories
> in search
> 2007-03-04 13:54:21:001 1132 b30 Agent *********
> 2007-03-04 13:54:21:001 1132 b30 Agent ** END ** Agent: Finding updates
> [CallerId = AutomaticUpdates]
> 2007-03-04 13:54:21:001 1132 b30 Agent *************
> 2007-03-04 13:54:21:001 1132 2d0 AU >>## RESUMED ## AU: Search for
> updates
> [CallId = {E59F7C69-AB87-4195-BB01-EC4140585691}]
> 2007-03-04 13:54:21:001 1132 2d0 AU # 0 updates detected
> 2007-03-04 13:54:21:002 1132 2d0 AU #########
> 2007-03-04 13:54:21:002 1132 2d0 AU ## END ## AU: Search for updates
> [CallId = {E59F7C69-AB87-4195-BB01-EC4140585691}]
> 2007-03-04 13:54:21:002 1132 2d0 AU #############
> 2007-03-04 13:54:21:002 1132 2d0 AU AU setting next detection timeout to
> 2007-03-04 23:56:52
> 2007-03-04 13:54:26:030 1132 984 Report REPORT EVENT:
> {B36C9D84-3F40-4F6A-8E9F-FE9A8B3D6316} 2007-03-04
> 13:54:20:999+1100 1 147 101 {00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000} 0 0
> AutomaticUpdates Success Software
> Synchronization Windows Update Client successfully detected 0 updates.
> 2007-03-04 13:54:26:030 1132 984 Report REPORT EVENT:
> {A35C5187-2AEA-481F-8921-890470FDDE1E} 2007-03-04
> 13:54:20:999+1100 1 154 101 {00000000-0000-0000-0000-000000000000} 0 0
> AutomaticUpdates Failure Software Synchronization Client has an invalid
> Pid.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "Sudheer GN [MSFT]" wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>> Please see if there are any errors in C:\Windows\Windowsupdate.log
>> during the time you attempted to scan for updates.
>>
>> Please post the contents of the log file and I can check if there are
>> errors.
>>
>> --
>> Sudheer GN
>> Microsoft, WU Client
>>
>>
>> This posting is provided "As Is" with no warranties, and confers no
>> rights.
>> Use of included script samples are subject to the terms specified at
>> http://www.microsoft.com/info/cpyright.htm
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> "James" <> wrote in message
>> news:0137674A-440A-4C52-90A5-...
>> > last time I check windows update in my Vista Ultimate (week ago) there
>> > are
>> > about 18 optional updates listed in windows update (language pack &
>> > ultimate
>> > extras).
>> > And I checked again early this week, they are all gone!!!! windows
>> > update
>> > just simply tells me that there are no updates available to download at
>> > this
>> > time. No ultimate extras too. Those updates just gone.....
>> > I didn't hidde any updates, and last update I installed is Windows
>> > Defender
>> > update at 24/02/2007 KB915597 (Definithion 1.15.2323.1)
>> >
>> > I have checked "check for update" many times.. still tells me that "No
>> > New
>> > updates are available for your compter." "No new Windows Ultimate
>> > Extras
>> > are
>> > available for your computer at this time. Please check back regularly
>> > to
>> > take
>> > full advantage of Windows Ultimate Extras as more offerings are added."
>> >
>> > I am using Genuine OEM verison, and I have activated it long time ago
>>
>>

Hi Sudheer,

Thank you for your help and I am sorry I wasn't able to reply to your pose
as quickly as I can.
I haven't test the solution method you provided me in last post. The reason
is I found a way to workaround the issue, using the method posted by other
Microsoft tech in this forum in one of post.
I will describe that method later, but just want to let you know that even
this "updates missing" issue can be fixed by that method. Every time when
there is new Windows Defender updates and after I install it. All my updates
are gone again and I need to repeat the steps to fix this issue again.

The method I used to fix "Updates missing" issue as following

*Open an elevated command prompt. (Go to Start -> Programs -> Accessories,

right-click on Command Prompt, and choose "Run as administrator".)

*In the command prompt window, run the following two commands:

net stop wuauserv

rmdir /s C:\Windows\SoftwareDistribution\DataStore

Don't close the command prompt window yet.

*Rename the C:\Windows\WindowsUpdate.log file to some other name. (This

isn't actually necessary, but will make it much easier to distinguish the

post-reset activity from the pre-reset activity.)

*Run the Registry Editor. (Go to Start -> Run, type "regedit" and press

Enter.) Warning: Incorrect registry changes can damage your Windows

installation and require reinstalling Windows or other software; be very

careful when following these steps.

*In the Registry Editor tree, find

HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\Curr entVersion\WindowsUpdate.

Right-click on WindowsUpdate in the tree and choose Delete.

*Back in the command prompt window, run this command:

net start wuauserv

*You can now close the command prompt window and the Registry Editor window.

*Now run the Windows Update control panel


Thanks you, Sudheer.
I will test your method next time when it happens again. And let you know
how it goes.

Regards,
James

"Sudheer GN [MSFT]" wrote:

> Hi James,
>
> Sorry for the delay in response. We need more information to further ...............

Hi,
Thanks for responding, James.

If it happens again, please do send me the log file.
Please save %windir%\softwaredistribution\datastore
If it gets fixed by deleting the above dir, please send me the dir that you
saved along with the log file.
That will help us to find the cause of this issue


--
Sudheer GN
Microsoft, WU Client


This posting is provided "As Is" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
Use of included script samples are subject to the terms specified at
http://www.microsoft.com/info/cpyright.htm

"James" <> wrote in message
news:9A15F342-8B8D-486F-B7DB-...
> Hi Sudheer,
>
> Thank you for your help and I am sorry I wasn't able to reply to your pose
> as quickly as I can.
> I haven't test the solution method you provided me in last post. The
> reason
> is I found a way to workaround the issue, using the method posted by other
> Microsoft tech in this forum in one of post.
> I will describe that method later, but just want to let you know that even
> this "updates missing" issue can be fixed by that method. Every time when
> there is new Windows Defender updates and after I install it. All my
> updates
> are gone again and I need to repeat the steps to fix this issue again.
>
> The method I used to fix "Updates missing" issue as following
>
> *Open an elevated command prompt. (Go to Start -> Programs -> Accessories,
>
> right-click on Command Prompt, and choose "Run as administrator".)
>
> *In the command prompt window, run the following two commands:
>
> net stop wuauserv
>
> rmdir /s C:\Windows\SoftwareDistribution\DataStore
>
> Don't close the command prompt window yet.
>
> *Rename the C:\Windows\WindowsUpdate.log file to some other name. (This
>
> isn't actually necessary, but will make it much easier to distinguish the
>
> post-reset activity from the pre-reset activity.)
>
> *Run the Registry Editor. (Go to Start -> Run, type "regedit" and press
>
> Enter.) Warning: Incorrect registry changes can damage your Windows
>
> installation and require reinstalling Windows or other software; be very
>
> careful when following these steps.
>
> *In the Registry Editor tree, find
>
> HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Microsoft\Windows\Curr entVersion\WindowsUpdate.
>
> Right-click on WindowsUpdate in the tree and choose Delete.
>
> *Back in the command prompt window, run this command:
>
> net start wuauserv
>
> *You can now close the command prompt window and the Registry Editor
> window.
>
> *Now run the Windows Update control panel
>
>
> Thanks you, Sudheer.
> I will test your method next time when it happens again. And let you know
> how it goes.
>
> Regards,
> James
>
> "Sudheer GN [MSFT]" wrote:
>
>> Hi James,
>>
>> Sorry for the delay in response. We need more information to further
>> ...............
>