Accessing Remote Shared Files on WAN Side!

Discussion in 'Server Networking' started by John Britton, Dec 31, 2003.

  1. John Britton

    John Britton Guest

    PLEASE HELP ME!
    Accessing Remote Shared Files on WAN Side!

    Microsoft Support:

    We are trying to map to a directory that resides on a
    Windows 2003 Server.

    I use to use Windows 2000 Pro. as a server for my ftp
    software and it worked fine. And now upgraded my server to
    Windows Server 2003 Enterp. Edition. And now does not work
    like it did with Win2000.
    I was use to be able to use this
    command "\\<IP_Address>\C$" and now with Server 2003 it
    will not work on the WAN side, but works on the LAN side.
    Is there any way of accessing my hard drives remotely and
    easy to do so?

    I use to be able to right click desktop in any windows and
    click on new and then shortcuts and then \\<IP_Address>\i$
    and now it does not work any where out side of my LAN. Can
    someone please help me? Any information that can help me
    resolve this problem or any ideas would be greatly
    appreciated!

    If you need any other information please e-mail me at
    or call me at (727) 443-9366 and ask for
    John Britton. I need this issue solved or I will
    downgrade, so it will work!


    Please following up with me and I wish you a happy new
    year for you and your family.


    John Britton
    IT Network Support Administrator

    Line 2: (727) 443-9366
    Mobile: (727) 418-9366
     
    John Britton, Dec 31, 2003
    #1
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  2. John,

    Would connecting using terminal services in remote admin mode work? That
    way you can connect to your server's desktop and have access from the WAN
    side.

    The following article should help get you started!

    818773 White Paper: Remote Administration of Windows Servers Using Remote
    Desktop Connection
    http://support.microsoft.com/?id=818773

    Hope that helps!

    Steve Dodson [MSFT]
    Directory Services


    --------------------

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    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights.
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    Note: For the benefit of the community-at-large, all responses to this
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    Steve Dodson [MSFT], Dec 31, 2003
    #2
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  3. John Britton

    John BRitton Guest

    Microsoft Support:

    Thanks for replying to my post, but I don't want to use
    Remote Desktop connection. I just want to get the files
    remotely from other computer out side of my LAN. It works
    when I do. "\\24.92.213.228\c$" or "\\brittonj.com\c$" or
    when a user has a map drive like "\\Server\James_Profile"
    it all works fine on LAN side, but I do want to access
    shared files and folders on the WAN side too. Is there
    any way I can do this with out downgrading to Windows
    2000 server or Pro. on the server? I all works fine with
    Windows 2000, but With your new Windows 2003 Server it
    does not work. And I don't want any of my users using
    remote desktop connection from my server remotely.

    Any information that can help me resolve this problem or
    any ideas would be greatly
    appreciated!

    Please following up with me and I wish you a happy new
    year for you and your family.

    Thanks,
    John

    John N Britton

    IT Network Administrator
    727.443.9366

     
    John BRitton, Dec 31, 2003
    #3
  4. What specific error are you receiving when attempting
    to map to the admin shares on the W2k3 server?
     
    Michael Giorgio - MS MVP, Dec 31, 2003
    #4
  5. John Britton

    John Britton Guest

    The error I am getting on the WAN side is.
    The file \\24.92.213.228\c$ can not be found.
    It works on the LAN but not on WAN and no it is not my
    cisco router.

    Please heml me if you have any idea to get this to work
    or i will have to downgrade to windows 2000.

    Thanks & A Happy New Year,
    John

    John Britton

    IT Network Administrator
    727.443.9366
     
    John Britton, Dec 31, 2003
    #5
  6. Hi John,

    If it works on the local LAN but not on the WAN
    side then I would suspect the packets are being
    dropped on the router end. Use network monitor
    to capture the network traffic while attempting to
    map the drive on both ends of the WAN and see
    where the packets are being dropped.
     
    Michael Giorgio - MVP, Jan 1, 2004
    #6
  7. John Britton

    John Britton Guest

    Michael Giorgio or Microsoft Support Team:

    I tried putting the server on the WAN side and still it
    did not work. I by-passed the router and had no LAN. And
    when trying to mapping the drives remotely, it still did
    not work.

    If you or anyone wants to give this a try by remote
    connecting to my server, just e-mail me and i will give
    you access. I need this fix or I will downgrade to
    Windows 2000.

    Any information that can help me resolve this problem or
    any ideas would be greatly appreciated!

    Please following up with me and I wish you a happy year
    to come for you and your family.

    Thanks,
    John

    John N Britton

    IT Network Administrator
    727.443.9366
     
    John Britton, Jan 1, 2004
    #7
  8. Out of curiosity. Verify Netbios over tcp/ip is enabled.
    I would suggest you fire up Network Monitor and find
    out where the packets are being dropped.

    It might help if you described the network on the WAN
    side in detail.
     
    Michael Giorgio - MS MVP, Jan 2, 2004
    #8
  9. John Britton

    John Britton Guest

    Hey:

    Just found out that it is rr.com stoppign the ports. I am
    writing a big letter to Time Warner and Bright House
    Networks about this. As Road Runner has stopped these
    ports Nation Wide. Please can you write to them too.

    Thanks,
    John

     
    John Britton, Jan 2, 2004
    #9
  10. John Britton

    John Britton Guest

    Subject: Bright House Networks/Time Warner; Road Runner:
    Stopped Internet Ports to all Users Nation Wide

    January 2nd, 2004

    To whom it may concern at Bright House Networks/Time
    Warner; Road Runner:

    I John Britton is a member of Tampa Bay Road Runner
    Services. I have been with Road Runner for over two years
    now. I chose Road Runner to be my Internet Service
    Provider because of their great high speed internet
    service. I have told all my friends, family and co-works
    to change to Bright House Networks/Time Warner EarthLink
    or Road Runner. I believe I have given you over 20 new
    customers over the years.
    As I travel a lot in and out of the United Sates, I want
    to access my work and personal files from my home
    computer. So I connected by using Microsoft Net Bios
    Protocol in Windows. This always works with any windows
    computer, but in the last two months, I started having
    trouble connecting from other computers to my home
    computer.

    Net Bios runs over TCP and UDP Protocols and you can
    disable the rights in windows if you wanted to in TCP/IP.
    It is available with all windows versions. For me to
    connect to my home computer, you click on "Start" on your
    desktop then "Run" and type in "\\<IP_ADDRESS>\c$" and
    will ask for your user name and password and then you can
    view and open all your files and folders on your hard
    drive. I do this by using any computer that is connected
    to the (WAN) Wide Area Network known as the internet. You
    can also map your remote hard drive at work so I can
    upload and download files and folders to my work and home
    computer. It was great and easy to use, but after a two
    mouths ago it stopped working for me. I reformatted my
    home computer to see if that was the problem, but it was
    not. I then downgrade to Windows 2000 Server to see if it
    was Windows Xp Pro. and it still did not fix my problem.
    I kept trying this and that to get this to work. So I e-
    mailed several different computer techs to try to figure
    out why this was not working for me. A friend advised me
    to install Windows Server 2003, so Microsoft sent me a
    180 day trial version of Microsoft Windows Server 2003
    Enterp. Edition. So I have tried Windows 2000 Pro,
    Windows 2000 Server, Windows Xp Pro and Windows 2003
    Server and none of these worked for me. I needed to
    access my files from home remotely, so I had to call
    Microsoft to figure this out. To speak with a support
    professional for per incident is $245.00. So I called
    Microsoft phone support and tried this and that. They
    remotely connected to Windows Xp Pro using port 3389.
    Microsoft is telling me it is my (ISP) Internet Service
    Provider, so I called 727.324.1009 which is Road Runner
    phone tech support and spoke to Ted Turner. Ted's Tech ID
    is H79, he was very helpful to me but still did not fix
    my problem. He said Road Runner Nation Wide stopped these
    ports. So I am guessing Road Runners Engineers had to
    change these ports settings in every router and/or modem
    that Road Runner owns. I presumed, you used a bin file to
    stop these ports in the modems of each connection. I need
    Net Bios ports open and they are ports 135 to 139 and
    ports 442 to 447.

    PORT INFORMATION:
    135: loc-srv
    136: profile
    137: netbios-ns
    138: netbios-dgm
    139: netbios-ssn

    I asked if I can upgrade to Road Runner Business Class
    and he said that will not fix my problem so I guess I
    will have to change (ISP) Internet Service Provider or
    see if I can get Road Runner to open these ports again.
    If I change ISPs I will advise all my clients to change
    too.

    I can see why you blocked these ports, I presume it was
    because of all the viruses over the last years. But the
    only way a virus can get throw ports 135-139 is if you
    have a user name and password. You need a user name and
    password for these OS: Windows 2000 Pro, Windows 2000
    Server, Windows ME, Windows Xp Home & Pro, Windows 2003
    Sever, and new Windows Longhorn coming soon. So if you
    try connecting threw ports 135-139 it will not let you
    without a user name or password. But if you have Windows
    95, Windows 98, or Windows 98 Second Edition it will let
    you in on the system if hooked up on the LAN or WAN side.
    This is the only thing I could think of that Road Runner
    blocked these ports because of clients still using
    Windows 95 and Windows 98 to connect to the (WAN)
    internet. But I would have to say that was not a very
    good reason why you blocked these ports, because of virus
    getting threw these ports, to windows users using Windows
    95 and 98. Most of your nation wide businesses and
    residents users use newer (OS) operating system. Not
    obsolete Windows 95 and 98. I don't see how a virus can
    get threw ports 135-139 with out a user name and password
    unless using Windows 95 or Windows 98. I can see the
    blaster viruses slowing down your connection speed
    because it pings on your computer system, as it is trying
    to get in, using port 135. So I can see it flooding port
    135 and when that happened it slows your internet speed
    down but you can go into your TCP/IP protocol and tell
    Net Bios to be disabled, in Windows.


    I have to say Road Runner could have informed there
    clients when making big changes like this. Especially
    after I have spent over 90 hours trying to figure this
    out and after I have spent over $245.00 on a telephone
    call to Microsoft Support Professional Team. I think next
    time you should inform your customers. Please open these
    ports again nation wide around the United States or I
    will have to change ISPs and I will have all my friends
    and family change ISPs. I have given you a good reason to
    change if you have something better please inform me? I
    do think Road Runner should pay for that call I made to
    Microsoft that coast over $245.00 an hour. And my time
    spent trying to figure out why. Even before I called
    Microsoft I called Road Runner and when on your Bright
    House Networks web site to Network Status and it does not
    state a thing about this change of maintenance.
    I am paying $44.95 per month for Road Runner and that
    should allow me to use all my ports that are 0 to 65535.
    As Road Runner has stopped ports 135-139 and 442-447, you
    should lower your monthly price because you did not
    inform your customers and we are not getting are full
    internet access. And I am paying for Broadband connection
    with AOL $14.95 per month too. If I can upgrade to a
    better plan that will allow me to use these ports please
    let me know, because I have tried with a business account
    and residential account and got no where. Can't you just
    tell my modem to allow all these ports to be open or do I
    have to downgrade and change ISPs, so it will work!

    Thanks for your time and trouble, looking forward to
    hearing from you. I wish you a happy new year. Please if
    you need any other information please e-mail me at
    or call me at (727) 443-9366 and ask
    for John Britton. I need this issue solved.

    John Britton

    IT Network Systems Engineer
    (727) 443-9366

    cc: Microsoft Newsgroup Support Team,
    Feedback at Tampa-Bay Road Runner,
    Abuse at Road Runner, and
    Security at Road Runner
     
    John Britton, Jan 2, 2004
    #10
  11. John Britton

    John Britton Guest

    Subject: Bright House Networks/Time Warner; Road Runner:
    Stopped Internet Ports to all Users Nation Wide

    January 2nd, 2004

    To whom it may concern at Bright House Networks/Time
    Warner; Road Runner:

    I John Britton is a member of Tampa Bay Road Runner
    Services. I have been with Road Runner for over two years
    now. I chose Road Runner to be my Internet Service
    Provider because of their great high speed internet
    service. I have told all my friends, family and co-works
    to change to Bright House Networks/Time Warner EarthLink
    or Road Runner. I believe I have given you over 20 new
    customers over the years.
    As I travel a lot in and out of the United Sates, I want
    to access my work and personal files from my home
    computer. So I connected by using Microsoft Net Bios
    Protocol in Windows. This always works with any windows
    computer, but in the last two months, I started having
    trouble connecting from other computers to my home
    computer.

    Net Bios runs over TCP and UDP Protocols and you can
    disable the rights in windows if you wanted to in TCP/IP.
    It is available with all windows versions. For me to
    connect to my home computer, you click on "Start" on your
    desktop then "Run" and type in "\\<IP_ADDRESS>\c$" and
    will ask for your user name and password and then you can
    view and open all your files and folders on your hard
    drive. I do this by using any computer that is connected
    to the (WAN) Wide Area Network known as the internet. You
    can also map your remote hard drive at work so I can
    upload and download files and folders to my work and home
    computer. It was great and easy to use, but after a two
    mouths ago it stopped working for me. I reformatted my
    home computer to see if that was the problem, but it was
    not. I then downgrade to Windows 2000 Server to see if it
    was Windows Xp Pro. and it still did not fix my problem.
    I kept trying this and that to get this to work. So I e-
    mailed several different computer techs to try to figure
    out why this was not working for me. A friend advised me
    to install Windows Server 2003, so Microsoft sent me a
    180 day trial version of Microsoft Windows Server 2003
    Enterp. Edition. So I have tried Windows 2000 Pro,
    Windows 2000 Server, Windows Xp Pro and Windows 2003
    Server and none of these worked for me. I needed to
    access my files from home remotely, so I had to call
    Microsoft to figure this out. To speak with a support
    professional for per incident is $245.00. So I called
    Microsoft phone support and tried this and that. They
    remotely connected to Windows Xp Pro using port 3389.
    Microsoft is telling me it is my (ISP) Internet Service
    Provider, so I called 727.324.1009 which is Road Runner
    phone tech support and spoke to Ted Turner. Ted's Tech ID
    is H79, he was very helpful to me but still did not fix
    my problem. He said Road Runner Nation Wide stopped these
    ports. So I am guessing Road Runners Engineers had to
    change these ports settings in every router and/or modem
    that Road Runner owns. I presumed, you used a bin file to
    stop these ports in the modems of each connection. I need
    Net Bios ports open and they are ports 135 to 139 and
    ports 442 to 447.

    PORT INFORMATION:
    135: loc-srv
    136: profile
    137: netbios-ns
    138: netbios-dgm
    139: netbios-ssn

    I asked if I can upgrade to Road Runner Business Class
    and he said that will not fix my problem so I guess I
    will have to change (ISP) Internet Service Provider or
    see if I can get Road Runner to open these ports again.
    If I change ISPs I will advise all my clients to change
    too.

    I can see why you blocked these ports, I presume it was
    because of all the viruses over the last years. But the
    only way a virus can get throw ports 135-139 is if you
    have a user name and password. You need a user name and
    password for these OS: Windows 2000 Pro, Windows 2000
    Server, Windows ME, Windows Xp Home & Pro, Windows 2003
    Sever, and new Windows Longhorn coming soon. So if you
    try connecting threw ports 135-139 it will not let you
    without a user name or password. But if you have Windows
    95, Windows 98, or Windows 98 Second Edition it will let
    you in on the system if hooked up on the LAN or WAN side.
    This is the only thing I could think of that Road Runner
    blocked these ports because of clients still using
    Windows 95 and Windows 98 to connect to the (WAN)
    internet. But I would have to say that was not a very
    good reason why you blocked these ports, because of virus
    getting threw these ports, to windows users using Windows
    95 and 98. Most of your nation wide businesses and
    residents users use newer (OS) operating system. Not
    obsolete Windows 95 and 98. I don't see how a virus can
    get threw ports 135-139 with out a user name and password
    unless using Windows 95 or Windows 98. I can see the
    blaster viruses slowing down your connection speed
    because it pings on your computer system, as it is trying
    to get in, using port 135. So I can see it flooding port
    135 and when that happened it slows your internet speed
    down but you can go into your TCP/IP protocol and tell
    Net Bios to be disabled, in Windows.


    I have to say Road Runner could have informed there
    clients when making big changes like this. Especially
    after I have spent over 90 hours trying to figure this
    out and after I have spent over $245.00 on a telephone
    call to Microsoft Support Professional Team. I think next
    time you should inform your customers. Please open these
    ports again nation wide around the United States or I
    will have to change ISPs and I will have all my friends
    and family change ISPs. I have given you a good reason to
    change if you have something better please inform me? I
    do think Road Runner should pay for that call I made to
    Microsoft that coast over $245.00 an hour. And my time
    spent trying to figure out why. Even before I called
    Microsoft I called Road Runner and when on your Bright
    House Networks web site to Network Status and it does not
    state a thing about this change of maintenance.
    I am paying $44.95 per month for Road Runner and that
    should allow me to use all my ports that are 0 to 65535.
    As Road Runner has stopped ports 135-139 and 442-447, you
    should lower your monthly price because you did not
    inform your customers and we are not getting are full
    internet access. And I am paying for Broadband connection
    with AOL $14.95 per month too. If I can upgrade to a
    better plan that will allow me to use these ports please
    let me know, because I have tried with a business account
    and residential account and got no where. Can't you just
    tell my modem to allow all these ports to be open or do I
    have to downgrade and change ISPs, so it will work!

    Thanks for your time and trouble, looking forward to
    hearing from you. I wish you a happy new year. Please if
    you need any other information please e-mail me at
    or call me at (727) 443-9366 and ask
    for John Britton. I need this issue solved.

    John Britton

    IT Network Systems Engineer
    (727) 443-9366

    cc: Microsoft Newsgroup Support Team,
    Feedback at Tampa-Bay Road Runner,
    Abuse at Road Runner, and
    Security at Road Runner
     
    John Britton, Jan 2, 2004
    #11
  12. John, for security reasons these ports should *never* be
    open. The whole idea of a firewall is to block this type
    of access. Having these ports open and available to the
    rest of the world is like leaving the door unlocked. I
    suggest you look into a secure solution such as a VPN.
     
    Michael Giorgio - MS MVP, Jan 2, 2004
    #12
  13. John Britton

    John Britton Guest

    Subject: Bright House Networks/Time Warner; Road Runner:
    Stopped Internet Ports to all Users Nation Wide

    January 2nd, 2004

    To whom it may concern at Bright House Networks/Time
    Warner; Road Runner:

    I John Britton is a member of Tampa Bay Road Runner
    Services. I have been with Road Runner for over two years
    now. I chose Road Runner to be my Internet Service
    Provider because of their great high speed internet
    service. I have told all my friends, family and co-works
    to change to Bright House Networks/Time Warner EarthLink
    or Road Runner. I believe I have given you over 20 new
    customers over the years.
    As I travel a lot in and out of the United Sates, I want
    to access my work and personal files from my home
    computer. So I connected by using Microsoft Net Bios
    Protocol in Windows. This always works with any windows
    computer, but in the last two months, I started having
    trouble connecting from other computers to my home
    computer.

    Net Bios runs over TCP and UDP Protocols and you can
    disable the rights in windows if you wanted to in TCP/IP.
    It is available with all windows versions. For me to
    connect to my home computer, you click on "Start" on your
    desktop then "Run" and type in "\\<IP_ADDRESS>\c$" and
    will ask for your user name and password and then you can
    view and open all your files and folders on your hard
    drive. I do this by using any computer that is connected
    to the (WAN) Wide Area Network known as the internet. You
    can also map your remote hard drive at work so I can
    upload and download files and folders to my work and home
    computer. It was great and easy to use, but after a two
    mouths ago it stopped working for me. I reformatted my
    home computer to see if that was the problem, but it was
    not. I then downgrade to Windows 2000 Server to see if it
    was Windows Xp Pro. and it still did not fix my problem.
    I kept trying this and that to get this to work. So I e-
    mailed several different computer techs to try to figure
    out why this was not working for me. A friend advised me
    to install Windows Server 2003, so Microsoft sent me a
    180 day trial version of Microsoft Windows Server 2003
    Enterp. Edition. So I have tried Windows 2000 Pro,
    Windows 2000 Server, Windows Xp Pro and Windows 2003
    Server and none of these worked for me. I needed to
    access my files from home remotely, so I had to call
    Microsoft to figure this out. To speak with a support
    professional for per incident is $245.00. So I called
    Microsoft phone support and tried this and that. They
    remotely connected to Windows Xp Pro using port 3389.
    Microsoft is telling me it is my (ISP) Internet Service
    Provider, so I called 727.324.1009 which is Road Runner
    phone tech support and spoke to Ted Turner. Ted's Tech ID
    is H79, he was very helpful to me but still did not fix
    my problem. He said Road Runner Nation Wide stopped these
    ports. So I am guessing Road Runners Engineers had to
    change these ports settings in every router and/or modem
    that Road Runner owns. I presumed, you used a bin file to
    stop these ports in the modems of each connection. I need
    Net Bios ports open and they are ports 135 to 139 and
    ports 442 to 447.

    PORT INFORMATION:
    135: loc-srv
    136: profile
    137: netbios-ns
    138: netbios-dgm
    139: netbios-ssn

    I asked if I can upgrade to Road Runner Business Class
    and he said that will not fix my problem so I guess I
    will have to change (ISP) Internet Service Provider or
    see if I can get Road Runner to open these ports again.
    If I change ISPs I will advise all my clients to change
    too.

    I can see why you blocked these ports, I presume it was
    because of all the viruses over the last years. But the
    only way a virus can get throw ports 135-139 is if you
    have a user name and password. You need a user name and
    password for these OS: Windows 2000 Pro, Windows 2000
    Server, Windows ME, Windows Xp Home & Pro, Windows 2003
    Sever, and new Windows Longhorn coming soon. So if you
    try connecting threw ports 135-139 it will not let you
    without a user name or password. But if you have Windows
    95, Windows 98, or Windows 98 Second Edition it will let
    you in on the system if hooked up on the LAN or WAN side.
    This is the only thing I could think of that Road Runner
    blocked these ports because of clients still using
    Windows 95 and Windows 98 to connect to the (WAN)
    internet. But I would have to say that was not a very
    good reason why you blocked these ports, because of virus
    getting threw these ports, to windows users using Windows
    95 and 98. Most of your nation wide businesses and
    residents users use newer (OS) operating system. Not
    obsolete Windows 95 and 98. I don't see how a virus can
    get threw ports 135-139 with out a user name and password
    unless using Windows 95 or Windows 98. I can see the
    blaster viruses slowing down your connection speed
    because it pings on your computer system, as it is trying
    to get in, using port 135. So I can see it flooding port
    135 and when that happened it slows your internet speed
    down but you can go into your TCP/IP protocol and tell
    Net Bios to be disabled, in Windows.


    I have to say Road Runner could have informed there
    clients when making big changes like this. Especially
    after I have spent over 90 hours trying to figure this
    out and after I have spent over $245.00 on a telephone
    call to Microsoft Support Professional Team. I think next
    time you should inform your customers. Please open these
    ports again nation wide around the United States or I
    will have to change ISPs and I will have all my friends
    and family change ISPs. I have given you a good reason to
    change if you have something better please inform me? I
    do think Road Runner should pay for that call I made to
    Microsoft that coast over $245.00 an hour. And my time
    spent trying to figure out why. Even before I called
    Microsoft I called Road Runner and when on your Bright
    House Networks web site to Network Status and it does not
    state a thing about this change of maintenance.
    I am paying $44.95 per month for Road Runner and that
    should allow me to use all my ports that are 0 to 65535.
    As Road Runner has stopped ports 135-139 and 442-447, you
    should lower your monthly price because you did not
    inform your customers and we are not getting are full
    internet access. And I am paying for Broadband connection
    with AOL $14.95 per month too. If I can upgrade to a
    better plan that will allow me to use these ports please
    let me know, because I have tried with a business account
    and residential account and got no where. Can't you just
    tell my modem to allow all these ports to be open or do I
    have to downgrade and change ISPs, so it will work!

    Thanks for your time and trouble, looking forward to
    hearing from you. I wish you a happy new year. Please if
    you need any other information please e-mail me at
    or call me at (727) 443-9366 and ask
    for John Britton. I need this issue solved.

    John Britton

    IT Network Systems Engineer
    (727) 443-9366

    cc: Microsoft Newsgroup Support Team,
    Feedback at Tampa-Bay Road Runner,
    Abuse at Road Runner, and
    Security at Road Runner
     
    John Britton, Jan 2, 2004
    #13
  14. John Britton

    Jeremy Guest

    WAAAAA Get a life... Most Isp's block netbios traffic to protect the
    idiots who don't know how to setup usernames and passwords. Use a different
    file transfer protocol like FTP. My ISP not only blocks netbios but they
    block incomming FTP, Web, and Mail. So that individuals can not run
    servers. They changed that without telling anyone. Ohh wait you forgot to
    read the user agreement saying they can change there service with no notice.
     
    Jeremy, Jan 2, 2004
    #14
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