ANN: MS Announces Changes for Accessing Hotmail with Outlook Express

Discussion in 'Internet Explorer' started by PA Bear [MS MVP], Apr 18, 2008.

  1. [Crossposted to OE General, OE6, IE General, & IE6 newsgroups; Followup-To
    set for OE General]

    Microsoft Announces Changes for Accessing Hotmail with Outlook Express
    <quote>
    As of June 30, 2008, Microsoft is disabling the DAV protocol and you will no
    longer be able to access your Hotmail Inbox [or other Hotmail folders] via
    Outlook Express...
    </quote>
    Source:
    http://emailsupport.spaces.live.com/Blog/cns!5D6F5A79A79B6708!5359.entry

    ======================

    Please Note:

    1. Installing Windows Live Mail /may/ disable your access to Outlook
    Express.

    2. Installing Windows Live Mail /may/ change your default Mail Client from
    Outlook Express to Windows Live Mail.

    3. The Windows Live "all-in-one" installer /may/ install more than just
    Windows Live Mail. If you decide to try Windows Live Mail, UNCHECK any
    unwanted Windows Live applications (e.g., Windows Live Messenger; Windows
    Live Toolbar; Windows Live Family Safety) before proceeding with the
    installation!
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

    Windows Live Mail-specific newsgroup:
    microsoft.public.windows.live.mail.desktop

    Via the web-interface:
    http://www.microsoft.com/communitie...dg=microsoft.public.windows.live.mail.desktop

    Via your newsreader:
    news://msnews.microsoft.com/microsoft.public.windows.live.mail.desktop
     
    PA Bear [MS MVP], Apr 18, 2008
    #1
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  2. PA Bear [MS MVP]

    VanguardLH Guest

    Note: FollowUp-To ignored. Reply posted to all newsgroups since,
    according to PA Bear, they should all be related groups in which
    continued discussion is on-topic.
    Hmm, so they dropped WebDAV access for freebie accounts created after
    November 2004. Now they're dropping WebDAV access even for paid
    accounts (any create date) and forcing users to their Windows Live Mail
    client which has security flaws and defects just so they can push their
    Hotmail users to use a client and connect to their HTTP servers that now
    support DeltaSync (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DeltaSync). All so
    Microsoft doesn't have to support already established e-mail protocols
    and lock their Hotmail users into using Microsoft e-mail clients.

    Well, the microsoft.public.windows.live.mail.desktop group should be
    getting a lot more busy. Wonder how many will simply choose to dump a
    local e-mail client and just go with the Windows Live Hotmail "full"
    webmail interface? Might be what Microsoft intends to happen, anyway,
    so they can push their Ajax-enabled webmail interface.
     
    VanguardLH, Apr 18, 2008
    #2
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  3. PA Bear [MS MVP]

    ju.c Guest

    I can get free Hotmail in OE, hehehe!


    ju.c


     
    ju.c, Apr 18, 2008
    #3
  4. PA Bear [MS MVP]

    Gordon Guest

    Well I can get free Hotmail in Thunderbird. So there.
     
    Gordon, Apr 18, 2008
    #4
  5. Hello All,

    I wanted to take some time to address the concerns/questions that have
    started on this thread.

    Microsoft is doing this to force people onto the client: False. We are
    doing this because the DAV protocol is inefficient on larger mailbox sizes.
    Once Hotmail upgrade storage space synchronization issues happen within DAV.
    DeltaSynch is a stable protocol that will be able to efficiently handle large
    accounts.

    This locks people into a Microsoft client to access Hotmail: False. Hotmail
    customers are able to utilize POP3, or as mentioned below, other clients such
    as Thunderbird. Though Live Mail is optimized for usage against Hotmail, it
    is not the single choice for connection. You will also be able to continue
    full access through your browser.

    Does this affect Live Hotmail and Outlook Connector - Yes. Any user
    utilizing Outlook connector 1.8 or earlier will need to upgrade to the new
    OLC. Live Mail is currently DeltaSynch ready and Live Hotmail is available
    through your browser.
     
    Windows Live Mail Technologies Support, Apr 18, 2008
    #5
  6. VanguardLH wrote:
    NB: There are Windows Live Hotmail subscribers who currently access their
    account(s) in OE via POP3. This change will not affect them.
     
    PA Bear [MS MVP], Apr 18, 2008
    #6
  7. PA Bear [MS MVP]

    Liviu Guest

    I'll top post, too, to keep the thread at least somewhat readable.

    Taking what you say at face value, I'd like to suggest a few simple
    changes which would make WLM easier to test-run, and leave less of a
    "doing this to force people onto the client: false" impression...

    1. Provide a bare no-strings-attached install. Right now, even the
    mail-only option downloads some sign-in assistant and live updater.

    Current workaround: pretend to install in a sandbox (e.g. VM), then
    grab the WLM .MSI file once downloaded, and use that one to install
    on the master machine.

    2. Ask before importing existing accounts e.g. from OE, not everybody
    needs/appreciates that being done automatically with no opt-out choice.

    Current workaround for OE: create a dummy identity with no accounts, set
    it as default before installing WLM.

    3. Don't touch the existing windows update settings, and definitely not
    without asking. WLM is (billed as) an email client, not a system nanny.

    Current workaround: if auto-update was turned off before installing WLM,
    turn it back off afterwards.

    4. Don't steal the .EML and .NWS file associations without asking,
    especially when WLM is _not_ set as the default client.

    Current workaround: restore associations manually after WLM install.

    The above notwithstanding, it is true that WLM can be run (for hotmail
    access, for example) side-by-side with other email clients.


    "Windows Live Mail Technologies Support"
     
    Liviu, Apr 18, 2008
    #7
  8. PA Bear [MS MVP]

    Gordon Guest

    So you bread a book bottom up, do you?
     
    Gordon, Apr 18, 2008
    #8
  9. PA Bear [MS MVP]

    Liviu Guest

    No, but if someone started reading it to me backwards already, I might
    as well continue in the same direction. If nothing else, makes it easier
    to remember where to stop ;-)
     
    Liviu, Apr 18, 2008
    #9
  10. PA Bear [MS MVP]

    ANONYMOUS Guest


    In fact Windows Live Mail allows you to access hotmail account free of
    charge even if it is a new account. The idea is MS wants everybody to
    use Windows Live Email. OE is a dated technology and it is time to put
    it in the museum!!

    hth
     
    ANONYMOUS, Apr 18, 2008
    #10
  11. PA Bear [MS MVP]

    VanguardLH Guest

    And it is after June 30, 2008 wherever you are? What planet would that
    be?
     
    VanguardLH, Apr 18, 2008
    #11
  12. PA Bear [MS MVP]

    VanguardLH Guest

    Not without using additional software, like the Webmail extension
    (http://webmail.mozdev.org/index.html) or FreePOPs (don't know if that
    still works). Thunderbird alone, the way you mention, doesn't do
    Hotmail.
     
    VanguardLH, Apr 18, 2008
    #12
  13. PA Bear [MS MVP]

    VanguardLH Guest

    Wonder how long Microsoft is going to carry those legacy accounts. I've
    heard from users of MSN legacy accounts that they still get POP access.
    I don't know if the *Hotmail* legacy accounts (legacy as of July 2002
    when POP got dropped) continued to get POP access. I thought only the
    MSN legacy accounts continued to get POP access.


    - 1996 July: Hotmail becomes available.
    - 1997 December: Microsoft buys Hotmail.
    - 2000 February: For MSN, POP3 access is discontinued and switches to
    WebDAV access. MSN "legacy" accounts created before that date continue
    to get POP3 access. MSN accounts created after that date only get
    WebDAV access.
    - 2002 July: For Hotmail, POP3 access is discontinued and switches to
    WebDAV access.
    - 2004 November: For Hotmail, Microsoft changes policy to disable WebDAV
    access for *new* free Hotmail accounts created after that date. Old
    (and still active) accounts created before that policy change date
    continue to get WebDAV access. New accounts created after that date
    must pay to get WebDAV access.
    - 2007 June: Microsoft introduces DeltaSync, its replacement for WebDAV.
    - 2008 June: Microsoft disables WebDAV and forces use of DeltaSync.
     
    VanguardLH, Apr 18, 2008
    #13
  14. PA Bear [MS MVP]

    VanguardLH Guest

    Will DeltaSync be a published protocol that any programmer can follow to
    add it to their own non-Microsoft e-mail client? Will the command set
    needed for the client to communicate with the Hotmail servers be
    disclosed?
    While there was some documentation regarding WebDAV, like
    http://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc2291, it really doesn't describe the
    command set that is used between client and the Hotmail mail host. So
    even if DeltaSync is a published protocol, will enough information be
    dispersed by Microsoft to allow other e-mail clients to support
    DeltaSync with whatever command set is required to communicate with
    Hotmail? If not, users will be locked into using Microsoft e-mail
    clients.

    As best as I can piece together, and after updating it today, my record
    of Hotmail's history (obtained through Google, Wiki, and various other
    sources) is:

    Hotmail history (obtained through Google, Wiki, and various other
    sources)

    - 1996 July: Hotmail becomes available. Provides a webmail interface to
    e-mail service.
    - 1997 December: Microsoft buys Hotmail to include in their MSN
    services.
    - 1999 August: Anyone can log into any Hotmail account using the
    password "eh"
    (http://www.wired.com/science/discoveries/news/1999/08/21503).
    - 1999 December: Microsoft forgets to pay their passport.com domain
    renewal fee. Hotmail is unavailable on Christmas Eve. A Linux
    consultant pays the fee and Hotmail comes back up.
    - 2000 February: For MSN Hotmail, POP3 access is discontinued and
    switches to WebDAV access. MSN "legacy" accounts created before that
    date continue
    to get POP3 access. MSN Hotmail accounts created after that date only
    get WebDAV access which restricts them to using Microsoft's Outlook or
    Outlook Express e-mail clients (later some plug-ins or proxies become
    available to allow non-Microsoft e-mail clients to access Hotmail but
    they get killed in 2004 November except for paid accounts when WebDAV
    access gets pulled from free accounts).
    - 2002 July: For free Hotmail accounts, POP3 access is discontinued and
    switches to WebDAV access. Hotmail PLUS (paying customers) gets
    POP3/SMTP mail host access.
    - 2003 (autumn): Microsoft forgets to pay their hotmail.co.uk domain
    renewal fee. Another good Samaritan pays the fee. No downtime.
    - 2004 November: Microsoft changes policy to disable WebDAV access for
    *new* free Hotmail accounts created after that date. Old (and still
    active) free accounts created before that policy change date (i.e.,
    grandfathered accounts) continue to get WebDAV access. After this date,
    Microsoft charges for WebDAV access. New plug-ins and proxies start
    showing up to compensate. Old plug-ins and proxies still work with
    non-Microsoft e-mail clients for *paid* Hotmail accounts where WebDAV
    access remains.
    - 2005 November: Microsoft officially announces Windows Live Mail
    (codename Kahuna), later rebranded to Windows Live Hotmail. Goes
    through some beta testing.
    - 2006 November: Windows Live Hotmail first released to existing and new
    Netherlands users as a pilot market.
    - 2007 May: Microsoft releases Windows Live Hotmail to worldwide market.
    Users can elect to stay with the MSN Hotmail or try the new Windows Live
    Hotmail (classic or full) interface. They are given an option (which
    eventually disappears) to switch back to MSN Hotmail.
    - 2007 June: Microsoft introduces DeltaSync, its replacement for WebDAV.
    - 2007 September: Users start reporting that Microsoft begins
    involuntarily *forcing* MSN Hotmail users to migrate to the Windows Live
    Hotmail interface. One day they were using MSN Hotmail, the next they
    were forced to Windows Live Hotmail without any action on their part,
    and they cannot switch back.
    - 2007 September: POP3 access returns only for Windows Live Hotmail Plus
    (paid) accounts but not for MSN Hotmail Premium (paid) accounts.
    Requires SSL connects and SMTP authentication (pop3.live.com port 995,
    smtp.live.com port 25 with SMTP authentication, SSL on both).
    - 2008 June: Microsoft disables WebDAV on all accounts and forces use of
    DeltaSync protocol. For free Windows Live Hotmail accounts, users will
    need to use Outlook 2003 or 2007 with the Outlook Connector plug-in
    (post-1.8 version) or the Windows Live Mail client. For PAID Windows
    Live Hotmail accounts, users can use any POP3/SMTP e-mail client. The
    webmail interface remains available for free and paid accounts as it has
    been ever since Hotmail existed.

    So you'll need to qualify your statement to "Only Windows Live Hotmail
    *PLUS* customers are able to utilize POP3 as of November 2007".
    "Hotmail" by itself includes all types of accounts: MSN, Hotmail, or
    Windows Live Hotmail and free or paid. Only the paid Windows Live
    Hotmail accounts get POP/SMTP access.
    Webmail access has been the substantive interface to Hotmail since its
    debut almost 12 years ago in 1996. Nothing new there although it has
    gone through facelifts and now adds Ajax. I don't think any Hotmail
    user has ever pondered on policy changes, lack of POP/SMTP access,
    WebDAV loss, change to DeltaSync, or the other myriad of changes to
    non-webmail access to Hotmail to then wonder if there won't be a webmail
    interface to Hotmail.

    I forget when Microsoft decided to reduce from 2 to 1 advertisements in
    the webmail interface to Hotmail but there are still plenty of users
    that NEVER want to deal with the webmail interface despite the full
    version of Windows Live Mail trying to act like a regular e-mail client.
    You've seen a lot of whoopla over whether or not there is a webmail
    interface to Hotmail?
     
    VanguardLH, Apr 19, 2008
    #14
  15. PA Bear [MS MVP]

    VanguardLH Guest

    - Hotmail begins with a webmail interface and provides POP3/SMTP access.
    - POP3/SMTP were yanked by Microsoft and replaced with WebDAV.
    - WebDAV is considered inadequate and replaced with DeltaSync.
    - POP3/SMTP were added back to paid Hotmail accounts.

    So if WebDAV was inadequate, why go to DeltaSync at all? Obviously
    POP3/SMTP was considered adequate since it was re-offered on paid
    accounts (and one MS blog says that it is planned to show up for free
    accounts in another 12 months, and that blog was dated back in Nov
    2007).

    Microsoft goes to DeltaSync *AND* goes back to POP3/SMTP, so why not
    just go back to POP3/SMTP? Actually I'd like to see IMAP offered. I'm
    really not interested in yet another Microsoft proprietary protocol that
    non-Microsoft clients cannot support.

    Found an interesting blog of a meeting at:

    POP3 on Hotmail Explained: we talk to Omar Shahine
    http://www.liveside.net/blogs/interview/default.aspx

    which has the meeting recorded (audio only) at:
    http://www.liveside.net/files/folders/5578/download.aspx

    When playing in Windows Media Player, under View -> Enchancements,
    disable SRS (if on) and use the graphic equalizer to drop the bass end
    to make the audio more clear.

    They are making the same presumption as does GMail: the user wants to
    leave all their e-mails up on the server whether read or not. Not me.
    I want to locally manage all my e-mails. I don't want to leave them on
    the server. So the huge disk space quotas proclaimed by Hotmail, Yahoo
    Mail, Gmail, and others means very little to me. I yank the messages so
    they are local and I don't need all that disk space for the mailbox.
    Far more important is the per-message-size quota as regards to me
    retrieving those message. Fortunately I haven't been afflicted with
    boob senders that spew huge-sized messages because they know how to put
    large files in online disk space and provide a link to it, or I'll
    educate them on how to do that.

    Microsoft is thinking of e-mail going forward as a substitute for file
    transfer protocols (FTP) and obviously e-mail was never designed for
    that. It was designed under a trust model to deliver large volumes of
    small messages. Omar talks about tens of thousands of messages in the
    mailbox whereas I never have more than a couple dozen because of my
    e-mail client polling and yanking the e-mails not a whole lot after when
    the e-mail arrived (I poll anywhere from 10 to 60 minutes depending on
    the use of a particular account and its level of traffic). I do not
    want large messages. If I started to get them, I'd configure Outlook to
    NOT download them, I'd use the webmail interface to check them, and I'd
    probably tell the sender to put their huge e-mail in an anatomical
    orifice.
     
    VanguardLH, Apr 19, 2008
    #15

  16. Live mail is auto-logging.... kisses the ass of Uncle Sam. Homeland Zecurity
    loves it and wants *everyone* to use it.... makes everything much easier.
     
    David Morgan \(MAMS\), Apr 19, 2008
    #16
  17. Please ask your Windows Live Mail-specific question here:
    microsoft.public.windows.live.mail.desktop

    Via the web-interface:
    http://www.microsoft.com/communitie...dg=microsoft.public.windows.live.mail.desktop

    Via your newsreader:
    news://msnews.microsoft.com/microsoft.public.windows.live.mail.desktop
    --
    ~PA Bear


    VanguardLH wrote:
    <snip>
     
    PA Bear [MS MVP], Apr 19, 2008
    #17
  18. PA Bear [MS MVP]

    VanguardLH Guest

    (had to be added manually since PA Bear incorrectly leaves the sigdash
    delimiter BEFORE the quoted content - and many non-Microsoft NNTP
    clients comply with RFC as to placement and will also strip the
    signature from replies. OE has a registry hack to move the signature to
    its proper position at the end of the reply.)
    Asking for documentation or an SDK for DeltaSync is not a question about
    how to use the Windows Live Mail client.
     
    VanguardLH, Apr 19, 2008
    #18
  19. [Top posting to p*** you off]

    It's not a question for IE- and/or OE-newsgroups either.

    Bite me.

    <plonk>
     
    PA Bear [MS MVP], Apr 19, 2008
    #19
  20. PA Bear [MS MVP]

    VanguardLH Guest

    You mean the groups to which YOU chose to submit your original post.
     
    VanguardLH, Apr 19, 2008
    #20
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