ANS: "What's the deal with UAC (Windows Needs Your Permission screens)" and "...But I thought I was

Discussion in 'Windows Vista Administration' started by Jimmy Brush, Jul 31, 2006.

  1. Jimmy Brush

    Spirit Guest

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  2. Well i want to know , not if I should turn the (A program needs your
    Here is what you should do. You should contact the vendor and get an
    updated version of the program, because it is INCORRECTLY WRITTEN.

    It breaks the XP programming guidelines. Yes, I said the *XP* guidelines,
    which were published years ago.

    XP was lax and let such programs run anyway. Vista polices those guidelines
    much more rigidly, for security reasons.

    If you insist on turning off UAC, simply type 'vista turn off uac' into
    Google! I've done it for you - here is the best link:

    ....(watch the line break)

    Steve Thackery, Jun 28, 2008
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  3. Jimmy Brush

    Ernst Guest

    Exellent explanation Jimmy. Thank You. I now, after months of using Vista and
    hours of searching the net, understand the basic reasoning behind all my
    suffering. It makes a lot of sense and I will definitely make myself a
    seperate user account for daily use. Having said this I do not believe
    Microsoft is going to get the everage Joe to go through such a steep learning
    curve. Also, giving a program temporary administrator rights does not work
    with my very first attempt on Explorer. A numeber of files and folders have
    either been hidden, deleted or placed elsewhere by Vista when re-directing
    the documents and picture folders to another drive (following directions by
    MS Help). F.i. folders from my documents directory have ended up inside my
    pictures directory. When trying to reorganise with Explorer (with
    administrator rights) I still get pop ups telling me I am not authorised to
    perform these tasks. I know MS is trying to give me control, but it sure does
    not feel like it.
    My only option seems to be to temporarily switch off UAC to get reorganised.
    Any other suggestions? Ernst
    Ernst, Jul 18, 2008
  4. Jimmy Brush

    Charlie Tame Guest

    Ernst, the UAC system is Microsoft's way of putting the horse back in
    front of the cart.

    The convention with Unix / Linux has always been to have one admin -
    "Root" and everyone else as users.

    Generally it's been the opposite with Windows.

    Unfortunately Vista does not "Explain" that as the "Owner" or
    "Installer" of the system you are really only a privileged "User". The
    impressions is that you are "Special" because in the past you always were.

    With Linux it has been convention for years that running as "Root" is a
    bad thing, and the more sophisticated the software you are using
    (Graphical User Interface for example) the more dangerous that would be
    because quite simply there's more chance of a bug letting bad things happen.

    So to do anything with older Linux you would sign out as "Ernst" and
    back in as "Root". Normally neither "Ernst" nor malware could do much to
    damage the system.

    Later versions allow "Ernst" to use the command "SUDO" (or similar) to
    temporarily gain admin rights (Root) for one specific task or groups of

    With Windows the convention has been the wrong way around, and this is a
    kind of "Legacy" carried on by the users who expect to always have
    total control at all times. Unfortunately this also gives a bad guy at
    your desktop, a bad guy with a remote terminal or bad software the same

    So although I think UAC is a clumsy and sometimes annoying way of trying
    to persuade people to do it the right way, it is an advisory tool that
    has some merit. It is NOT per-se increased security if you are silly and
    let things you are unaware of do what they ask, any more than the Linux
    method is "Security" if you become "Root" and let unknown software take
    actions it requests.

    In some circumstances signing in as "Root" might be acceptable, in your
    case it probably was, but with the amount of malware, spyware and stuff
    targeting Windows these days most users who were running as full admin
    were in danger.
    Charlie Tame, Jul 18, 2008
  5. Jimmy Brush

    Ernst Guest

    Charlie, Thank you for this extensive respons. Yes I understand what you are
    saying, but this was already clear to me from the earlier part of the thread.
    I also agree with the principal behind it. I have worked for many years with
    firewalls like ZoneAlarm and Comodo that use a similar principal: Ask the
    user what program is allowed access (the computer or the internet). However,
    these firewalls have never stopped me from doing the work that I need doing
    on my PC. UAC is. If this UAC is applied it should work properly, both in
    protection AND in giving access when given permission by me as administrator
    to do so. As I have described in my previous post, I cannot copy files within
    my user directory (from pictures to documents) even after starting Explorer
    up with administrator rights (right mouse button). Vista Home still tells me
    I do not have the correct authorisation. Never mind the fact that my owner
    directory is a mess after having stored (diverted) subdirectories on a
    different drive using the directions provided by Help. Basically this is a
    different problem, but they might be related. Ever since redirecting the
    pictures and the documents folders to the D-drive, the folder I had stored
    them in on the D-Drive has disappeared from view, including all the other
    files and subdirectories that it contained. I guess they are all still
    somewhere on the system, but I cannot see and thus cannot access them
    anymore. Other files and folders have switched directory. The example I gave
    was my bookkeeping folder. This folder used to be stored in 'Documents'.
    Since the divertion it is stored in the 'Pictures' directory. Go figure.
    Now, is the only way to reorganise my user directory to go 'root' and
    temporarily turn off UAC or is there another way to achieve this? To put it
    in another way: How can I make UAC do its job all the way? And HOW would I be
    able to temporarily turn UAC off by the time I loose my patience completely?
    And when I say temporarily, I mean temporarily, because I do agree with the
    basic idea of UAC.
    Thank you.
    Ernst, Jul 18, 2008
  6. Jimmy Brush

    Nonny Guest

    I stopped reading at this point (it would have been a lot easier to
    continue reading if you had used paragraphing).

    If UAC is interferring, you have two choices:

    1) download and run TweakUAC which will force UAC to run in "silent
    mode" and will greatly reduce the prompts you get. It will still
    permit IE to run in "protected mode".

    2) disable UAC entirely.
    Nonny, Jul 18, 2008
  7. Vista hides and disables the actual most privileged account to make it
    for users to take that lazy and less secure option. It creates the
    account so the administrator can get most of the access he or she needs with
    an "Admin Approval Mode" feature. This way, people who feel they need to
    be admin all the time can do so without severely reducing security as long
    they don't get too clickhappy - because "Administrator" is actually running
    with user privileges until elevated by answering prompts.

    Making an easy way to circumvent the feature is equivalent to completely
    defeating it because malware can do almost whatever the user can do. In
    fact, firewall application's abilities in this respect could be used by
    to the detriment of real security while adding to false security.

    UAC is pretty annoying at first, but I hardly ever get prompted any more.
    I suppose if you routinely have to execute strange and/or badly written
    programs, you could reestablish the most privileged user account and
    have your computer as secure as Windows 98. UAC seems to be aimed
    at reducing the fertile breeding ground for malware created by average users
    running with the brain-dead default settings Microsoft traditionally used to
    get that smooth out-of-the-box experience. They wanted to get people
    comfortable with computers. It's time to make the internet a safer place,
    if that means average users have to adopt better practices (enforced by
    UAC) then I say it is a "good thing". If you are a good netizen, and you
    know what you are doing, then maybe UAC isn't for you. There *is* a way,
    I think, to re-enable the real administrator and display it as an option on
    logon screen but I don't recall where I got this notion.
    FromTheRafters, Jul 18, 2008
  8. Jimmy Brush

    Kerry Brown Guest

    It sounds like the root (pun intended) of your problem is permissions. The
    UAC prompt is one of the symptoms, not the problem. Even though the UAC
    prompt is annoying unless you're very comfortable with the command prompt
    it's best to leave it on when dealing with permissions. Windows Explorer is
    made to work with UAC. With UAC off changing permissions via the GUI
    (Windows Explorer) may not work as you expect it to. Some things may fail
    because the process doesn't get elevated. You may want to temporarily enable
    the real "Administrator" account, fix the problem logged on with that
    account, then disable it again.

    Alternatively you can do this by typing commands in an elevated command

    You will probably also want to read up on "junctions". It sounds like you
    may have inadvertently created some junctions.

    The easiest way may be to create a new user account then copy whatever files
    you can to this account. Once you're sure you've got the data delete the old
    account and the messed up directories.
    Kerry Brown, Jul 18, 2008
  9. Jimmy Brush

    Ernst Guest

    Thanks Nonny, but I don't mind the prompts. I like the protection. I just
    need UAC ti REALLy allow me to fix my problems.
    Ernst, Jul 19, 2008
  10. Jimmy Brush

    Ernst Guest

    Thanx Rafters.

    Ernst, Jul 19, 2008
  11. Jimmy Brush

    Ernst Guest

    Thanks Kerry, I will follow your links (tomorrow) and see how far it will
    take me. It looks like it should help me resolve the issues.

    The 'real' admin-account may show me more of what is actually happening.

    The junctions are indeed new to me, I'll read up on it.

    And yes, if I all else fails, maybe copying to a new account may help (if I
    get permission to do so :).

    Thanks for taking my problem seriously.

    Ernst, Jul 19, 2008
  12. Question - is the AV software you're using certified for Vista? The reason
    I asked is that I had similar problems until I upgraded my AV software from
    "compatible with" to a version that was "certified".

    Mike Ober.
    Michael D. Ober, Jul 19, 2008
  13. Jimmy Brush

    Ernst Guest

    Interesting point, Mike. Thank you. I am currently using a trial version of
    Symantec's Internet Security version that was pre-installed as OEM
    software on my MSI PR 200 laptop. It shows a copyright registration of 2006.
    I have looked on the Symantec site, but I could not determine the Vista
    I also use Hitman Pro which updates itself and it's underlying software on a
    regular basis.
    Ernst, Jul 19, 2008
  14. Uninstall the Symantec Internet Security and Hitman Pro and see if your
    problem goes away. I actually had to reinstall Vista to clear out my AV
    related problems.

    Michael D. Ober, Jul 19, 2008
  15. Jimmy Brush

    Ernst Guest

    I'll try Kerry's suggestions and I will, as you suggest, uninstall these
    anti-malware programs. I want to recover some files, so I will try these
    actions first. As a last resort I may indeed have to reinstal Vista. Thank
    you Michael. Ernst
    Ernst, Jul 20, 2008
  16. Jimmy Brush

    Lemonheart Guest

    I can't stand permissions - I'm a stand-alone user and do not need them - I
    know how to turn them off but still get denied permission anyway and it
    drives me nuts - you Vista people don't understand the difficulty of trying
    to figure out "inherited"?? permissions and how to drill down or up to get
    the darn permissions granted and talk about "special permissions" - there's
    no way I can get in or out of that screen - even when I turn off User Account
    -the stupid icon shield comes up with a scary message that puts chills up
    and down my spine - come'on folks just tell me how to get rid of them - they
    make me want to go to a MAC - I know someone posted a way to get rid of the
    from DOS - Please help me if you have any compassion - I don't need the
    reasons you Vista people extoll - I'm a DINK and want ease of use and
    simplicity in my computer work -

    Let me know
    Lemonheart, Feb 20, 2009
  17. Jimmy Brush

    semoi Guest

    If you agree to purchase Vista SP3, aka Windows 7, your issues with UAC will
    be resolved, along with some, not all, of the idiotic performance draining
    issues in Vista.
    Alas, in typical Microsoft fashion, your peripherals may not work ever again
    due to driver changes for which Microsoft will blame the peripheral vendor
    or you rather than itself, just like the UAC tries to shift the blame to you
    for installing an errant program rather than actually screening the program
    to tell you if it is dangerous.
    semoi, Feb 20, 2009
  18. Jimmy Brush

    Richard Guest

    I need to boot directly from hibernate or sleep into a running program,
    without the USERNAME icon appearing and requiring a keystroke from me. I
    have my computer set to automatically wake up at 9AM and start trading stocks
    Richard, Dec 30, 2009
  19. Jimmy Brush

    Richard Guest

    Richard, Dec 30, 2009
  20. Jimmy Brush

    Camper Guest

    You also need to learn to trim a post before hitting the send button.

    Camper, Dec 31, 2009
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