[Beta] View by Conversation: Thread Sort Order

Discussion in 'Windows Live Mail' started by Ildhund, Aug 3, 2010.

  1. Ildhund

    Ildhund Guest

    Am I going potty, or has the sort order when viewing by conversation changed? I know a few people have campaigned for threads to be sorted by the date of the newest post rather than the original one, and it look as though this might have happened. An infuriatingly retrograde step, in my opinion. Threads jump around as new messages arrive and it's impossible quickly to locate a thread that used to be just a few lines away in the message list. What are the advantages, if any, of the new arrangement over the old one? Or is this another option I haven't found yet?
    --
    Noel
     
    Ildhund, Aug 3, 2010
    #1
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  2. The only one that I can think of is that the threads containing new posts
    are grouped, so you can see the next ones and anticipate them instead of
    having to do many Ctrl-u to find them all. That is kind of nice.

    BTW the weirdest "feechur" of the new scheme occurs when you mark a
    previously unwatched thread Watched but I haven't actually figured out a
    reason for it yet. Certainly not like OE where you could mark things
    without causing instant changes in ordering. But what's weird is that the
    beta doesn't really support thread ordering by anything but Sent so why does
    marking one make it get reclustered elsewhere? Almost as if it is giving
    me some of the grouping effect that I would prefer but only after messages
    are marked to enable the grouping and marked "read" to disable the new sort.
    It doesn't happen until a whole thread is read, so I suppose a workaround
    may be to leave one message marked unread before I apply the other marking.
    (I'll have to try that idea. TBD.)

    ICIM my column layout is Flag Watch MfO Subject and then Sent.


    Robert
    ---
     
    Robert Aldwinckle, Aug 3, 2010
    #2
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  3. Yes, they did something to the sorting which breaks what we were used to seeing in Wave 3.
    It even affects sorting when not using conversation mode.

    Gary VanderMolen, Microsoft MVP (Mail)


    "Ildhund" wrote in message
    Am I going potty, or has the sort order when viewing by conversation changed? I know a few people have campaigned for threads to
    be sorted by the date of the newest post rather than the original one, and it look as though this might have happened. An
    infuriatingly retrograde step, in my opinion. Threads jump around as new messages arrive and it's impossible quickly to locate a
    thread that used to be just a few lines away in the message list. What are the advantages, if any, of the new arrangement over the
    old one? Or is this another option I haven't found yet?
     
    Gary VanderMolen, Aug 3, 2010
    #3
  4. Ildhund

    Peter.R. Guest

    It does take some getting used to, but I have warmed to the idea, especially since I don't have to scroll down to find threads with new unread posts.

    However, (assuming that it is related), the main problem with it that I see, is that sometimes a conversation becomes split into two or more different threads, which happens when a poster edits the subject.

    --
    Peter.R
    (Windows Live Mail 2010 15.3.2804.0607 on Windows 7 Home Premium)
    "There are more things in Heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy." - Shakespeare

    "Ildhund" wrote in message
     
    Peter.R., Aug 3, 2010
    #4
  5. However, (assuming that it is related), the main problem with it that I

    In the case of the bridge and forums' threads when that happens the
    References: Message-ID has nothing in common so it can't be threaded. The
    problem you are describing could also happen (for example) if you never
    received (or otherwise don't have cached) an OP with its Message-ID and each
    responder decided to use his own Subject in their reply. Thus
    unfortunately, even though they might all contain a common References:
    Message-ID, they would not be threaded or grouped. (When the subject is
    left alone in that scenario they can still be grouped.) Otherwise just
    having a different Subject should not affect threading. To see how
    threading and grouping works and be more aware of changes in the References:
    Message-ID you can use the Watched Conversation marking.


    FYI

    Robert
    ---
     
    Robert Aldwinckle, Aug 3, 2010
    #5
  6. Ildhund

    Don Dewiel Guest

    I very much dislike this new behavior.
     
    Don Dewiel, Aug 3, 2010
    #6
  7. The watched threads in the screenshot at

    Since both of those "threads" start with Re: I suspect that you have an
    example of what I was referring to. E.g. they may both have a common
    ancestor Message-ID in the References: header but unless you actually have
    that Message-ID in your cache and have it marked those successors won't be
    threaded. They will be grouped though, provided the Subject stays the
    same. Since the Subject changed they loose any means of association from
    the cache.

    What would be interesting, if you only have a partial cache of the news
    server's full archive, would be backing up (assuming you haven't done a
    Catch Up) and going back to that common ancestor, then I predict you would
    see both threads finally combined in spite of their different Subjects.

    Not a bug IMO. In a way a feature because if subthreads diverge so much
    from the common ancestor that they are renamed it is not really that useful
    seeing their historical association perpetuated. For one thing the
    threading may be so deep that there is no longer any way to appreciate its
    subthreads in a view of all messages.


    Robert
    ---
     
    Robert Aldwinckle, Aug 3, 2010
    #7
  8. Ildhund

    ...winston Guest

    Noel,
    It has changed from Wave 3 to Wave 4. You've received a few responses and opinions.
    I like others became quite accustomed to how sort worked in Wave 3....but I'll introduce a variable not previously mentioned.

    While everyone is looking at WLM beta from its own UI regarding sort in mail and news <g>, sometimes we all forget that this is
    'Live'(i.e. more verb than noun) and with that comes integration related to another Live application which coincidentally has a 9
    digit user base(dwarfing WLM by multiples)-->Hotmail.

    As an example....We all know the long history of the ability(inability) to access Hotmail via WebDAV in OE(missing in Windows Mail,
    dropped for new Hotmail accounts) now DeltaSync in WLM and Outlook/Connector...it shouldn't come as too much a surprise that Wave 4
    as a platform for all apps and services increases the integration and directionally binding WLM and Hotmail more closely than in
    the past. Throw Photo e-mail, Photo Gallery, SkyDrive, Messenger, Office 10, Office Apps in the mix then common themes across all
    may precipitate program and 'code' directives and commonality.

    With Hotmail Wave 4 being rolled out to the masses the Wave 4 Hotmail UI and the WLM UI are not as dissimilar as they have been in
    the past. Conversation view is also present in the Wave 4 Hotmail UI...and accordingly, probably worthy of comparision when
    attempting to understand the Team's sort rationale, not to mention what one might expect to see in WLM now and moving forward.


    --
    ....winston
    ms-mvp mail

    "Ildhund" wrote in message
    Am I going potty, or has the sort order when viewing by conversation changed? I know a few people have campaigned for threads to be
    sorted by the date of the newest post rather than the original one, and it look as though this might have happened. An
    infuriatingly retrograde step, in my opinion. Threads jump around as new messages arrive and it's impossible quickly to locate a
    thread that used to be just a few lines away in the message list. What are the advantages, if any, of the new arrangement over the
    old one? Or is this another option I haven't found yet?
     
    ...winston, Aug 4, 2010
    #8

  9. You're right. It's broken. I'll try changing it back. E.g. you changed
    the : to a - so I'll change it back... (Was there a trailing space too?...
    Yes, there was. Leaving that on... )

    I know of one poster (in particular) who will be really surprised at what
    happens to his posts if he uses this working this way... <eg>

    Of course, this may only be sorting this way because of the Unread
    attribute? E.g. once everything gets marked Read where will it go?


    Robert
    ---
     
    Robert Aldwinckle, Aug 4, 2010
    #9
  10. Ildhund

    Ildhund Guest

    "Robert Aldwinckle" wrote in message
    I can't imagine who you're referring to. But I agree that it's broken. Every version of WLMail before this one has given priority to threading by reference over grouping by subject. That grouping was always superfluous in my opinion - all it ever seemed to do was shove 'Help!!!' posts several months back to join their mates.

    I must admit that when threads in some of the groups I frequent grow too long, I might welcome a left-shift as the subject changes, because indentation of the From: column often hides dozens of posters. But I put up with that - which I can't say about the new regime here. The fact that the order of conversations changes just because someone posted is extremely disturbing. It was only after a search that I managed to trace Peter.R's bogus post - 85 lines away from it's sister posted at the same time! And still marked as watched, all by itself - so it knew which thread it was supposed to be in, just that Nanny wouldn't let it.

    I feel like hacking into the connect site just to add a Me Too! to Gary's bug about this, which he must have filed. I wonder what proportion of official testers are serious newsgroup users. They don't seem to come here often, whoever they are - or I'm sure they'd have something to say.

    [And to end on a positive note: news: URLs containing '#' now work. Kudos to the devs for correcting that after four years!]
     
    Ildhund, Aug 4, 2010
    #10
  11. Ildhund

    Ildhund Guest

    Thanks, ...winston. Sure, the integration factor hadn't escaped my notice. I've come to the conclusion that trying to make Hotmail and WLMail look and act like each other is a great mistake; over at WLSC, most of the posters in the WLMail forums haven't a clue which they're using and hours are wasted trying to sort out problems with the one platform only to learn that 'no, im using live mail not hotmail my address is '.

    I'm also of the opinion that there are three broad user groups - those who abhor webmail, those who couldn't imagine using anything else, and a big bunch in the middle who neither know nor care. It's wrong, I think, to pander to the middle group rather than slanting the client towards the first and the service towards the others.

    That apart, this sorting mechanism is bizarre whatever anyone says.
    --
    Noel

    "...winston" wrote in message
    Noel,
    It has changed from Wave 3 to Wave 4. You've received a few responses and opinions.
    I like others became quite accustomed to how sort worked in Wave 3....but I'll introduce a variable not previously mentioned.

    While everyone is looking at WLM beta from its own UI regarding sort in mail and news <g>, sometimes we all forget that this is
    'Live'(i.e. more verb than noun) and with that comes integration related to another Live application which coincidentally has a 9
    digit user base(dwarfing WLM by multiples)-->Hotmail.

    As an example....We all know the long history of the ability(inability) to access Hotmail via WebDAV in OE(missing in Windows Mail,
    dropped for new Hotmail accounts) now DeltaSync in WLM and Outlook/Connector...it shouldn't come as too much a surprise that Wave 4
    as a platform for all apps and services increases the integration and directionally binding WLM and Hotmail more closely than in
    the past. Throw Photo e-mail, Photo Gallery, SkyDrive, Messenger, Office 10, Office Apps in the mix then common themes across all
    may precipitate program and 'code' directives and commonality.

    With Hotmail Wave 4 being rolled out to the masses the Wave 4 Hotmail UI and the WLM UI are not as dissimilar as they have been in
    the past. Conversation view is also present in the Wave 4 Hotmail UI...and accordingly, probably worthy of comparision when
    attempting to understand the Team's sort rationale, not to mention what one might expect to see in WLM now and moving forward.


    --
    ....winston
    ms-mvp mail

    "Ildhund" wrote in message
    Am I going potty, or has the sort order when viewing by conversation changed? I know a few people have campaigned for threads to be
    sorted by the date of the newest post rather than the original one, and it look as though this might have happened. An
    infuriatingly retrograde step, in my opinion. Threads jump around as new messages arrive and it's impossible quickly to locate a
    thread that used to be just a few lines away in the message list. What are the advantages, if any, of the new arrangement over the
    old one? Or is this another option I haven't found yet?
     
    Ildhund, Aug 5, 2010
    #11
  12. Ildhund

    Ildhund Guest

    PS and OT If I narrow the window down to a convenient reading size (something like 15 words wide), your text breaks in funny places when mine doesn't. We had this discussion some time ago with Peter.R, but if you set the line wrap at (say) 996 in the registry, you have to write really long paragraphs to cause unfortunate line breaks. Peter put his at 65535 (0xFFFF) IIRC, but I'm more modest and stick to the RFC maximum of 1000 less a few for CRLFs and things. I haven't dared try yet in the beta, but in v.14, if you so much as looked at what line wrap was set to, it reverted to the coded maximum of 132 and you had to hack the registry again. I think it looks nice with unbroken lines; now all they have to do is get the indentation working.
    --
    Noel

    "Ildhund" wrote in message
    Thanks, ...winston. Sure, the integration factor hadn't escaped my notice. I've come to the conclusion that trying to make Hotmail and WLMail look and act like each other is a great mistake; over at WLSC, most of the posters in the WLMail forums haven't a clue which they're using and hours are wasted trying to sort out problems with the one platform only to learn that 'no, im using live mail not hotmail my address is '.

    I'm also of the opinion that there are three broad user groups - those who abhor webmail, those who couldn't imagine using anything else, and a big bunch in the middle who neither know nor care. It's wrong, I think, to pander to the middle group rather than slanting the client towards the first and the service towards the others.

    That apart, this sorting mechanism is bizarre whatever anyone says.
    --
    Noel

    "...winston" wrote in message
    Noel,
    It has changed from Wave 3 to Wave 4. You've received a few responses and opinions.
    I like others became quite accustomed to how sort worked in Wave 3....but I'll introduce a variable not previously mentioned.

    While everyone is looking at WLM beta from its own UI regarding sort in mail and news <g>, sometimes we all forget that this is
    'Live'(i.e. more verb than noun) and with that comes integration related to another Live application which coincidentally has a 9
    digit user base(dwarfing WLM by multiples)-->Hotmail.

    As an example....We all know the long history of the ability(inability) to access Hotmail via WebDAV in OE(missing in Windows Mail,
    dropped for new Hotmail accounts) now DeltaSync in WLM and Outlook/Connector...it shouldn't come as too much a surprise that Wave 4
    as a platform for all apps and services increases the integration and directionally binding WLM and Hotmail more closely than in
    the past. Throw Photo e-mail, Photo Gallery, SkyDrive, Messenger, Office 10, Office Apps in the mix then common themes across all
    may precipitate program and 'code' directives and commonality.

    With Hotmail Wave 4 being rolled out to the masses the Wave 4 Hotmail UI and the WLM UI are not as dissimilar as they have been in
    the past. Conversation view is also present in the Wave 4 Hotmail UI...and accordingly, probably worthy of comparision when
    attempting to understand the Team's sort rationale, not to mention what one might expect to see in WLM now and moving forward.


    --
    ....winston
    ms-mvp mail

    "Ildhund" wrote in message
    Am I going potty, or has the sort order when viewing by conversation changed? I know a few people have campaigned for threads to be
    sorted by the date of the newest post rather than the original one, and it look as though this might have happened. An
    infuriatingly retrograde step, in my opinion. Threads jump around as new messages arrive and it's impossible quickly to locate a
    thread that used to be just a few lines away in the message list. What are the advantages, if any, of the new arrangement over the
    old one? Or is this another option I haven't found yet?
     
    Ildhund, Aug 5, 2010
    #12
  13. Sorry, I may have misled you. There is no official Connect type bug reporting system for Wave 4. Earlier this year Microsoft set
    up a mailing list and invited a select group of "Live" MVPs to join. They gave us access to an early 'dogfood' build of Wave 4 and
    asked for comments. The level of interaction with Microsoft reps on that mailing list has been 'hit or miss', mostly 'miss' with
    respect to WLMail issues.

    Gary VanderMolen, Microsoft MVP (Mail)


    "Ildhund" wrote in message
    I feel like hacking into the connect site just to add a Me Too! to Gary's bug about this, which he must have filed. I wonder what
    proportion of official testers are serious newsgroup users. They don't seem to come here often, whoever they are - or I'm sure
    they'd have something to say.
     
    Gary VanderMolen, Aug 5, 2010
    #13
  14. Ildhund

    ...winston Guest

    I'm game..
    In the beta I changed the line wrap values in the HKCU/.../mail and news reg key for Html and Plain Text to 979(3d3 Hex). It
    appears that one can edit the registry and then 'look' at the Mail and/or News wrap value in WLM options for the /Send Html and/or
    Plain text and not impact the registry value as long as one doesn't change it with a subsequent OK or Apply. Fyi...changing the
    Html reg value to 979 appears in the corresponding WLM/Send/Mail dialog box, but not in the respective Html settings/News dialog
    box. Changing the Plain Text reg wrap value does not modify the value in the either the Mail or News respective dialog box.
    (Possibly due to non functional code....the Indent Character by coincidence is on the same dialog box). Whether the change from my
    131 to 979 has an impact...not sure. This one was sent with Quoted Print in Plain Text



    --
    ....winston
    ms-mvp mail

    "Ildhund" wrote in message
    PS and OT If I narrow the window down to a convenient reading size (something like 15 words wide), your text breaks in funny
    places when mine doesn't. We had this discussion some time ago with Peter.R, but if you set the line wrap at (say) 996 in the
    registry, you have to write really long paragraphs to cause unfortunate line breaks. Peter put his at 65535 (0xFFFF) IIRC, but I'm
    more modest and stick to the RFC maximum of 1000 less a few for CRLFs and things. I haven't dared try yet in the beta, but in v.14,
    if you so much as looked at what line wrap was set to, it reverted to the coded maximum of 132 and you had to hack the registry
    again. I think it looks nice with unbroken lines; now all they have to do is get the indentation working.
    --
    Noel

    "Ildhund" wrote in message
    Thanks, ...winston. Sure, the integration factor hadn't escaped my notice. I've come to the conclusion that trying to make Hotmail
    and WLMail look and act like each other is a great mistake; over at WLSC, most of the posters in the WLMail forums haven't a clue
    which they're using and hours are wasted trying to sort out problems with the one platform only to learn that 'no, im using live
    mail not hotmail my address is '.

    I'm also of the opinion that there are three broad user groups - those who abhor webmail, those who couldn't imagine using anything
    else, and a big bunch in the middle who neither know nor care. It's wrong, I think, to pander to the middle group rather than
    slanting the client towards the first and the service towards the others.

    That apart, this sorting mechanism is bizarre whatever anyone says.
    --
    Noel

    "...winston" wrote in message
    Noel,
    It has changed from Wave 3 to Wave 4. You've received a few responses and opinions.
    I like others became quite accustomed to how sort worked in Wave 3....but I'll introduce a variable not previously mentioned.

    While everyone is looking at WLM beta from its own UI regarding sort in mail and news <g>, sometimes we all forget that this is
    'Live'(i.e. more verb than noun) and with that comes integration related to another Live application which coincidentally has a 9
    digit user base(dwarfing WLM by multiples)-->Hotmail.

    As an example....We all know the long history of the ability(inability) to access Hotmail via WebDAV in OE(missing in Windows Mail,
    dropped for new Hotmail accounts) now DeltaSync in WLM and Outlook/Connector...it shouldn't come as too much a surprise that Wave 4
    as a platform for all apps and services increases the integration and directionally binding WLM and Hotmail more closely than in
    the past. Throw Photo e-mail, Photo Gallery, SkyDrive, Messenger, Office 10, Office Apps in the mix then common themes across all
    may precipitate program and 'code' directives and commonality.

    With Hotmail Wave 4 being rolled out to the masses the Wave 4 Hotmail UI and the WLM UI are not as dissimilar as they have been in
    the past. Conversation view is also present in the Wave 4 Hotmail UI...and accordingly, probably worthy of comparision when
    attempting to understand the Team's sort rationale, not to mention what one might expect to see in WLM now and moving forward.


    --
    ....winston
    ms-mvp mail

    "Ildhund" wrote in message
    Am I going potty, or has the sort order when viewing by conversation changed? I know a few people have campaigned for threads to be
    sorted by the date of the newest post rather than the original one, and it look as though this might have happened. An
    infuriatingly retrograde step, in my opinion. Threads jump around as new messages arrive and it's impossible quickly to locate a
    thread that used to be just a few lines away in the message list. What are the advantages, if any, of the new arrangement over the
    old one? Or is this another option I haven't found yet?
     
    ...winston, Aug 6, 2010
    #14
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