concern about H-P tech advice about Vista

Discussion in 'Windows Vista Installation' started by terrypcarter, Mar 13, 2008.

  1. terrypcarter

    terrypcarter Guest

    Unless someone can talk me off this ledge, I'm going to jump. I can n
    longer take the multiple blue screen crash dumps. I have 32-bit Vist
    Home Premium on an HP Pavilion.
    After seeing those internal emails among Microsoft's top executive
    that were released in a lawsuit a couple of weeks ago -- they wer
    complaining to each other about the same problems on their hom
    computers with peripherals and drivers that I've been having -- I calle
    HP tech this morning and said I want to install XP Professional and tha
    I have a licensed copy on disk

    The HP tech guy, based in Oregon rather than India for a change, sai
    all I had to do was copy the files I want to keep onto my external har
    drive and then put the XP disk in the machine and it will direct me t
    format the hard drive.....and then install

    I recall reading somewhere that the chipsets or something in the gut
    of this machine -- I'm not a techie -- are designed for Vista and wil
    not accept XP without some serious tinkering at the motherboard/chipse
    neurosurgery level

    Anyone here have any advice or suggestions before I jump, perhap
    without bungy cord
     
    terrypcarter, Mar 13, 2008
    #1
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  2. Just make sure you get all the latest XP drivers for you machine from the HP
    web site , as depending on if the hard drive is a SATA drive you may need a
    driver to be able to access it. Drivers for hard drives are loaded during
    XP set from floppy (have you got one of those?)
    You may be able to set your SAT controller to act as an IDE controller to
    bypass the need for drivers during setup - you will need to see your BIOS
    manual for this (if available at all).
    Beyond that you should be able to install and then apply the required
    drivers for everything else (graphics card, NIC, sound etc) post install.
    Do remember that by installing XP you will no longer be able to use HP
    support as you will have replaced the OEM operating system.
     
    Mike Brannigan, Mar 13, 2008
    #2
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  3. terrypcarter

    Malke Guest

    General information about replacing Vista with XP:

    On an OEM (HP, Sony, etc.) computer:

    1. Go to the OEM's website and look for XP drivers for your specific model
    computer. If there are no XP drivers, then you can't install XP. End of
    story. If there are drivers, download them and store on a CD-R or USB
    thumbdrive; you'll need them after you install XP.

    2. Check with the OEM - either from their tech support website or by calling
    them - to see if you will void your warranty if you do this. If you will
    void the warranty, you make the decision.

    3. If the OEM does support XP on the machine, call them and see if you can
    have downgrade rights and have them send you an XP restore disk. This will
    be far the easiest and best way of getting XP on the machine.

    4. If XP is supported on the machine but the OEM doesn't have an XP restore
    disk for you, understand that you'll need to purchase a retail copy of XP
    from your favorite online or brick/mortar store.

    5. Also understand that you will need to do a clean install of XP so if you
    have any data you want, back it up first.

    6. If none of the above is applicable to you because you can't run XP on
    that machine (see Item #1 above), return the computer and purchase one
    running XP instead.

    http://michaelstevenstech.com/cleanxpinstall.html - Clean Install How-To
    http://www.elephantboycomputers.com/page2.html#Reinstalling_Windows - What
    you will need on-hand

    Malke
     
    Malke, Mar 13, 2008
    #3
  4. terrypcarter

    Juan Perez Guest

    Hi Terry:

    I have a HP Pavillion 2699EA. I live in Ireland. My Pavillion comes with Win
    Vista and I decided to install windows XP. The HP Pavillion 2699EA, comes
    with a SATA as the hard disk drive controller. When Win Xp was introduced in
    2001, there was not a SATA standard, that was introduced in 2003. (not sure
    about the dates).

    http://h10010.www1.hp.com/wwpc/ie/en/ho/WF06a/21675-38187-38191-38191-38191-80632671.html

    Windows XP is able to detect the PATA standards. That means that you need to
    locate the windows XP drives for SATA for your computer.

    Them you hav two ways:

    One is to create a CD using the software http://www.nliteos.com/ , check the
    tutorials, includes the SATA drivers for your pavillion. You will need some
    tries and a CD-RW media.

    Two, the one I used :cool:. I got from Ebay an external USB Floppy disk drive.
    Basically when you boot your cd of windows XP you press, in a given moment,
    F6, and use the drivers that previously you have copied to a floppy disk. In
    this case you could wipe off all the Win vista installation.

    In my case, I used previously a software,
    http://www.acronis.com/homecomputing/products/diskdirector/ , to resize and
    create a new partition, were I installed windows XP. I have what is called a
    Dual Boot.

    Later, you have to go to the HP pavillion web side and download all the
    drivers, for your web camera, sound, netwaork card, althought I remenber
    that win XP was able to detect almost all the perfericals. I jyst have
    pending the finger reader.

    Let us know if this help you.
     
    Juan Perez, Mar 13, 2008
    #4
  5. terrypcarter

    andy Guest

    Download Belarc Advisor, run it, and make a list of the devices
    (chipset, lan, sound, video, et al) in the computer.
    Go to the websites of the manufacturers of the devices, download the
    Windows XP drivers, and save them to a USB flash drive.
    You are now in a position to install Windows XP.
     
    andy, Mar 13, 2008
    #5
  6. terrypcarter

    Alain Guest

    try to put in the BIOS the SATA in legacy mode. It's helpful if you don't
    know exactly the right driver you need for installing XP
     
    Alain, Mar 13, 2008
    #6
  7. terrypcarter

    terrypcarter Guest

    This looks like a lot of helpful stuff but I've got to be very careful
    because I don't know an IDE from a brIDE. I'm pretty good at following
    step by step instructions, though I have to say I'm very unhappy at
    being put in the position (by Microsoft) of taking so many chances. I
    did, btw, tell the HP tech guy this morning -- who said to simply save
    the files I want to keep on an external drive, which I have, and proceed
    with installation of XP with a format drive request checked off early on
    in the process -- that I wanted him to put in my case file what we just
    discussed and what he just told me to go ahead and do. He said he did.
    That was to cover my.....warranty.

    I have a question about this advice posted here for me:
    -Just make sure you get all the latest XP drivers for you machine from
    the HP
    web site , as depending on if the hard drive is a SATA drive you may
    need a
    driver to be able to access it. Drivers for hard drives are loaded
    during
    XP set from floppy (have you got one of those?)
    You may be able to set your SAT controller to act as an IDE controller
    to
    bypass the need for drivers during setup - you will need to see your
    BIOS
    manual for this (if available at all).
    Beyond that you should be able to install and then apply the required
    drivers for everything else (graphics card, NIC, sound etc) post
    install.
    Do remember that by installing XP you will no longer be able to use HP
    support as you will have- -replaced the OEM operating system.-

    I want to proceed as simply as possible. I have a hunch that HP's web
    site is not going to offer the latest XP drivers for this machine that
    now is designed for and sold with VISTA.
    Is it possible for me to just backup files elsewhere and then just
    insert XP disk and install. Or is there one more step necessary first,
    the thing about having to do something first about the SATA drive? (And
    I don't know SATA from SATAn, but years ago I rebuilt a car engine with
    a step-by-step manual so I'd hope to be able to do this.)

    If would be great if that could take care of it and then, using XP once
    it's installed, go forth and find all the other drivers I need, one by
    one.
     
    terrypcarter, Mar 13, 2008
    #7
  8. I downgraded an HP Pavilion to XP. I contacted HP via their online chat,
    the rep provided links for drivers. The only problem was the SATA drive
    which the XP disk has no driver for. I couldn't find a driver on Asus's
    website (the Pavilion has an Asus motherboard). I contacted HP again and
    found that all I had to do was to change the disk controller setting in the
    BIOS from "Raid" to "IDE". The XP install was then able to see the SATA
    drive, there was no need to install any SATA drivers.
     
    Pete Stavrakoglou, Mar 13, 2008
    #8
  9. terrypcarter

    Malke Guest

    Pete Stavrakoglou wrote:
    I downgraded an HP Pavilion to XP. I contacted HP via their online chat,
    Thank you very much for sharing this. I'm sure it will help lots of people.

    Malke
     
    Malke, Mar 13, 2008
    #9
  10. terrypcarter

    Malke Guest

    It's admirable and amazing that you rebuilt a car engine (I certainly
    couldn't do that) but operating systems are a little different in that you
    don't necessarily have everything you need when you start out. Every piece
    of hardware needs a piece of software - called a "driver" - that tells the
    operating system (Windows XP or Vista in your case) how to use the
    hardware. Without the drivers, the hardware will not work under that
    particular operating system.

    Windows XP and Windows Vista come with many built-in drivers (which were
    provided to Microsoft by the hardware mftrs., not written by Microsoft).
    Vista has many more built-in drivers than XP did. This doesn't mean that XP
    will have drivers for your hardware, much of which hardware will have been
    made specifically for HP (long after XP came out) and thus be proprietary
    with drivers only available from HP. That is the reason you don't want to
    be blindly hopeful and unprepared. Take the time to check and not just go
    on a "hunch". You may be pleasantly surprised. Or not. But why be surprised
    at all?

    XP was written before SATA drives became commonly available. Therefore you
    will need the SATA drivers (drivers for the controller on the motherboard
    that will let XP "see" the SATA hard drives) on a floppy drive ahead of
    time. Very early in the XP installation, you'll press F6 to load additional
    drivers and the controller drivers are what are wanted. You may be able to
    get around this the way the other poster did - by changing the SATA drives
    to IDE in the BIOS.

    XP may pick up all your other hardware during the install and you'll be
    fine, or it may not. The only way to find out is to try. Or return your
    computer for one running XP now before it's too late (end of June, I
    believe).

    Malke
     
    Malke, Mar 13, 2008
    #10
  11. terrypcarter

    terrypcarter Guest

    Thanks Malke.
    I'm getting there. BTW, I love your web site. Though I still turn a
    wrench, I've been a journalist for 30 years and make my bread by
    writing. That's good, fun writing on your web site.

    If I weren't several thousand miles away, I'd haul this machine to your
    shop and let my employer pay you to get it right....and I'd scoot over
    to Sonoma for a day or two while you work on it. (I'd pretend it took
    that long.)


    I understand drivers somewhat, and already have disks with drivers for
    some peripherals etc. (scanner, printer, photo printer) and I can use
    them once XP is on the machine. I'm also experienced at going to
    manufacturers' web sites and elsewhere to find and download the correct
    drivers. But I get lost in the thicket of SATA, IDE etc.

    I want to be very careful with this SATA maneuver. I cut/pasted the
    recent posting here from someone else who got help from HP chat tech on
    this, and I ran it by my HP-tech online chat-mate a few minutes ago.
    Here's what I got, which is somewhat different than the other fellow
    was told. I want to sort it all out before I press the keys:

    *Bradley S*: Go to Advanced screen on the BIOS. Select SATA mode and
    press enter. Select it to IDE, save the BIOS settings and exit.
    Install XP pro without problem.

    *Terry Carter*: I assume I do this and then the next step is to put in
    the XP disk. How do I get to the Advanced screen on the BIOS?

    *Bradley S*: it will be there you need to use the arrow keys to select
    adavanced option.
    *Bradley S*: Is there any other technical issue you want me to assist
    you with?

    *Terry Carter*: Do you mean I put in the XP disk to install it and
    there will be a screen with arrow keys for me to select the advanced
    option?

    *Bradley S*: In order to getting to bios is you need to keep tapping
    the F10 key on your key.
     
    terrypcarter, Mar 13, 2008
    #11
  12. terrypcarter

    Malke Guest

    Thank you for the very kind words. It has been a rough day and your nice
    post has made it considerably better.

    SATA drives connect differently than the older model IDE drives. You'll need
    to have the drivers on a floppy. If your machine doesn't have a floppy
    drive you can use a usb floppy or even slipstream the drivers into XP:

    Slipstream RAID or SATA controller drivers:
    http://www.maximumpc.com/2005/01/how_to_slipstre.html
    http://unattended.msfn.org/unattended.xp/view/web/36/SESSID=8b0c51fd6eca712e465d2e6f79256fc8/

    If you can get these drive controller drivers for the motherboard from HP
    (for XP), then this would be the way to go rather than changing the setting
    to IDE in the BIOS. If you can't, it would be worth trying that other
    poster's suggestion to do that. You can always change it back if it doesn't
    work.

    The place to change which controller to use (SATA or IDE) is in the BIOS
    (Basic Input Output System), which has nothing to do with Windows. The BIOS
    is your computer's lower brain, if you will. Getting into the BIOS (also
    known as Setup) differs from motherboard to motherboard, but if the HP tech
    told you F10, that's the right one for your machine. You'll see a message
    that says something like "Press F10 to enter Setup" anyway when you first
    start the machine.

    Start the computer and immediately press F10. You should see a prompt that
    says something like "entering Setup". You'll use the arrow keys to navigate
    in Setup because no operating system is loaded, hence no mouse drivers.
    There will be a prompt at the bottom of each Setup screen giving
    instructions as to which keys to press to change settings. Be careful and
    don't change anything except the one thing you're in there for except you
    do want to change the boot order to optical drive first, hard drive second.

    Once you've changed the drive settings in the BIOS, press whatever key will
    save your changes and exit Setup. (You can put the XP install disk in any
    time now if you like so you're ready for later.) The computer will reboot
    and, because you set the boot priority to optical drive first, you'll get a
    prompt to press any key to boot from cd. Do this and the XP install will
    start.


    Malke
     
    Malke, Mar 14, 2008
    #12
  13. terrypcarter

    Juan Perez Guest

    Hi Terry:

    Can you tell us, the exact HP Pavillon model do you have?
     
    Juan Perez, Mar 14, 2008
    #13
  14. terrypcarter

    terrypcarter Guest

    I have the Pavilion a6130n

    I just spoke with HP tech again by phone. And I got different
    information from that I got on the phone yesterday morning and from HP
    tech chat later in the day.

    I called today to ask if they could give me the drivers for the
    motherboard that Malke suggested I request. Today's HP tech guy said
    they don't have them. But he also spent a long time trying to convince
    me that the problem isn't Vista, it's dummies like me. (He didn't put it
    that way, but that's what I inferred.)

    His suggestion tugs at my heart strings as far as the slight crush I
    have on Vista because of her look and feel. So I'm willing to try his
    advice on how to get her to be faithful and not so mean and demanding.

    My problems seem to have arisen from adding peripherals such as a
    scanner by Canon that proclaims itself Vista ready -- but when I install
    it Canon's own messages tell me I have to go on the web and update
    drivers for various aspects of it from various vendors -- as well as my
    HP photosmart 7960 for which HP puts Vista drivers on its web site. And
    so on. My sense of cause and effect tells me that the blue screen crash
    dumps I get sometimes several times a day are the result of those
    peripherals.
    My wife has the same machine and no peripherals. It's been humming
    along for months now with nary a blue screen.

    Today's HP tech guy says I should uninstall all the stuff I've tacked
    on this machine and then take any software/drivers etc that worked well
    for me on XP and install them on this Vista machine in SAFE MODE.

    He says to put the installation CD in the machine and do not let it
    auto-run. Rather, go to My Computer and open the disk and right click on
    the .exe or "install" file.

    He says I will be able to select "run in compatibility mode." He says
    choose XP from the list of operating systems offered and it will install
    without certain extras that might conflict with Vista.
    Once installed, restart the machine in regular mode and it will
    complete the install with all the bells and whistles and run on Vista as
    if it is XP -- sort of virtual XP.

    Any comments/suggestions/advice? I would like to keep Vista, but she's
    been abusing me and I don't want to continue enabling her if it will
    only get worse -- battered Vista-user syndrome.
     
    terrypcarter, Mar 14, 2008
    #14
  15. terrypcarter

    Malke Guest

    I think keeping Vista in this case is good advice and the HP tech is
    probably right, at least about that aspect of this case. After all, your
    wife has the same machine and it works nicely for her.

    To be honest, I'd back up any data and restore to factory condition with
    whatever technique HP provides for that machine. After the restore, remove
    all the extra HP OEM garbage and any trial software. Use a good and
    non-invasive antivirus like NOD32, Kaspersky, or even Avast (free). Use the
    Windows Firewall.

    Don't have any peripherals installed when you do the restore. Do whatever
    Windows Updates are available - do *not* install drivers from Windows
    Update - and then, when you have things the way you want them, go to the
    printer/scanner mftrs.' websites and download the latest drivers for the
    devices for Vista - forget the XP drivers. Install the drivers/software
    before connecting the device. See how things go after that. If a device
    does not have any drivers available (the whole "Vista ready" nomenclature
    is I think a veiled reference to "this is a cr*pshoot"), then consider
    simply replacing the device with one that is truly *made* to work with
    Vista. In the long run, this will be easier and simpler for you than trying
    to run XP on a machine that doesn't support that OS.

    I can tell you that I've set up quite a few Vista machines for clients in
    the last year or so and had absolutely no difficulties with peripherals as
    long as they really did work with Vista.

    Malke
     
    Malke, Mar 14, 2008
    #15
  16. terrypcarter

    terrypcarter Guest

    Malke
    Sorta been there done that. About a week and a half ago, maybe two,
    backed up all data files and email etc to an external hard drive. The
    HP tech walked me through restoring the machine/Vista to the time of it
    birth.

    I then re-loaded, re-attached the peripherals, got the appropriat
    drivers from manufacturers' web sites and, voila, the quite regular blu
    screen blues returned. (Tends to happen when the machine sleeps/rests o
    whatever, though sometimes when I'm writing away on a Word document.
    just got back from lunch and it crashed when I tried to wake it up.

    I went to Canon's web site for scanner drivers to work with Vista
    ditto for the HP photoprinter. Obviously to no avail.

    Perhaps there is a problem with the order in which I've done things i
    the process. But I gotta say, plenty of non-techies can attac
    peripherals, put in the software disks for them and click throug
    various stages to install. I doubt many are knowledgeable enough an
    resourceful enough to try even what I'm attempting here. That does no
    speak well for Vista. (I expect you read those internal Microsoft email
    concerning all this; they were were released in a lawsuit a few week
    ago. Their top execs couldn't deal the drivers/peripherals problems o
    their home computers.

    That HP tech recommendation this morning about tricking the system vi
    Safe Mode installation sure sounds like the easiest thing to do fo
    maximum success/effect. And I could uninstall if it obviously doesn'
    work. Malke, you didn't address that aspect but your post implies yo
    don't think much of it


    Also, maybe the difference is getting Windows Updates but NOT th
    drivers -- instead getting them from the manufacturers of the variou
    peripherals. If so, I don't know how that's done. I just click for it t
    update.

    I'm leaning toward first trying the Safe Mode chicanery. But I'm stil
    sitting on the fence, which has sharp-pointed pickets
     
    terrypcarter, Mar 14, 2008
    #16
  17. terrypcarter

    Hobo Guest

    Please re-read exactly what Malke said. She is very
    knowledgeable about these things You apparently have not
    done as she instructed. See below -

    You said that you -
    "re-attached the peripherals, got the appropriate
    drivers from manufacturers'"


    Malke said " Install the drivers/software
    before connecting the device"

    It is important that you install the drivers *before* you
    re-attach the peripherals.

    web sites and, voila, the quite regular blue
     
    Hobo, Mar 14, 2008
    #17
  18. terrypcarter

    Malke Guest

    As Hobo pointed out, you need to install the drivers/software before you
    attach the peripherals. So if you have been connecting them first, that's
    probably why you're having trouble. I've never had to install a peripheral
    in either XP or Vista in Safe Mode, but certainly if you want to try it you
    should go ahead. It would be wise to uninstall the printer and scanner
    first, including using any cleanup tools the mftr. might have. HP usually
    has uninstallation cleanup tools in one of the driver folders.

    Aside from that, I really don't know how else to help you long-distance. I
    don't know why you're having such problems except to guess that 1) you
    didn't install the software first; 2) the drivers aren't really compatible
    with Vista.

    I'm sorry that I wasn't able to help you further.

    Malke
     
    Malke, Mar 14, 2008
    #18
  19. terrypcarter

    terrypcarter Guest

    Back after some delay. Despite what I wrote and Hobo noticed, after that
    return to factory settings I did first install drivers from Canon for
    the scanner to work with Vista and then attached the scanner.
    And more recently I spent a long time on the phone with my newest best
    friend in India who does tech support for HP. He listened to my long
    story on this and stayed with me through another entire return to
    factory settings and installation of the drivers from Canon and then
    attachment of the scanner. The scanner worked, our phone call ended with
    considerable pleasantries.
    Then I left my office and when I returned and woke the computer from
    whatever sleep mode it enters, I got the blue screen crash dump.
    I uninstalled the scanner, which I attach only when in use, and for a
    couple of days I've had no crashes. So I surmise and pretty much assume
    that the scanner, despite the little "works with Vista" logo on the box
    and Canon's assurances on its web site, isn't going to work for me.

    My newest best friend also said that last week Microsoft sent trainers
    to their shop in India in part to prepare them for the upcoming service
    pack. My friend predicted it would be available in the next few days.

    I'll bring back the scanner after getting the service pack.

    I've appreciated the help here. But I'm obviously not sophisticated
    enough to take advantage of some of it. For those of you who are not
    auto mechanics, I would liken my experience with Vista to you wanting to
    start your car, but every time you first have to remove the ignition
    switch and reverse a couple of wires. And the next time the wiring is
    different yet again. You might soon want another car. That's not a
    perfect analogy, but close enough I think.
     
    terrypcarter, Mar 16, 2008
    #19
  20. terrypcarter

    Hobo Guest

    Good feedback, terrypcarter. Sorry to hear that all did not
    work out for you, but it sounds like you've been able to
    pinpoint the source of the problem. From your description it
    appears that there is some kind of bug still in the Canon
    driver that is affecting your machine. Hopefully, they will
    work it out and provide an updated driver in the near
    future, or, as you suggest, maybe the SP1 update will
    resolve the problem. Good luck.
     
    Hobo, Mar 16, 2008
    #20
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