Do reminders work as configured?

Discussion in 'Windows Live Mail' started by VanguardLH, Jan 26, 2014.

  1. VanguardLH

    VanguardLH Guest

    WLM 24.2.0
    Windows 7 x64

    _Problem 1: No popup from WLM when event comes due._

    I create an event in WLM. It has a reminder defined for it (i.e.,
    reminder interval is not "No reminder"). When the event's time comes, I
    don't get a popup from WLM. Instead I get an e-mail. Is that the only
    method that WLM via Live Calendar has to issue a reminder for an event?


    _Problem 2: Reminder set in WLM is not the reminder set in Live Calendar._

    I create a new event in WLM. I set its reminder to "No reminder". The
    copy in Live Calendar also has no reminders. So far, that matches up on
    client and server.

    If I edit that event in WLM to set a reminder to 0 minutes, Live
    Calendar shows "notifications to your devices" = "start time" for the
    reminder. I edit the event in WLM for a reminder of 1 week and Live
    Calendar's "notifications to your devices" changes to 1 week. So it's
    working so far.

    By creating an event with no reminder but later editing that event to
    add a valued reminder (0 minutes, 1 days, 1 week, whatever), the
    "notifications to your devices" doesn't issue an alert and there is no
    second notification of "Email (myaddrs)" to get alerted that way.

    The I create a *new* event in WLM with a reminder of 1 week. I don't
    start with a "no reminder" setting. I start the definition of the new
    event with a valued reminder setting. In Live Calendar, the
    "notification to your devices" is 1 week but a 2nd reminder of "Email
    (myaddrs)" is set to 1 hour. One, I never specifiedd to get an e-mail
    for the event in WLM but Live Calendar added one. Two, the e-mail
    reminder is only 1 hour and not the 1 week that I specified. The
    "notification to your devices" and "Email (myaddrs)" do not match in the
    event definition that I see in Live Calendar. With just 1 hour, I will
    not get an e-mailed reminder with sufficient lead time for the event.

    By specifying a valued reminder when creating an event, I do get the
    e-mailed alert for the event (but only 1 hour before the event, not the
    week that I specified).

    So, when created a reminderless event and later editing it to have an
    alert, I will still not get an alert. "notification to your devices"
    doesn't issue any alert through WLM. When I created an event with a
    reminder, the useless "notifications to your devices" is set correctly
    (but will not issue an alert through WLM) and the "Email (myaddrs)"
    notification is only 1 hour before the event and not the reminder
    interval that I specified in WLM where I created the event).

    I don't know what the "notifications to your devices" does since I
    cannot find anywhere that I define those devices. In the configuration
    of Live Calendar, only the e-mail address of where to deliver
    notifications is specified (but the reminder is fixed to only 1 hour in
    the events when viewed at Live Calendar). I suspect "devices" means
    mobile devices running some app running on a mobile device to
    periodically conenct with a Live Calendar account. So that notification
    method is worthless for desktop PCs where WLM is running.

    Since "notification to your devices" is worthless for users of WLM
    running it on a desktop PC, the scenario where I define an account with
    no reminder and later adding a reminder interval means there will NEVER
    be a reminder despite setting it in WLM. If I want to get a reminder
    (the only avenue for which appears to be via e-mail), I cannot create an
    event with "no reminder" since I'll never get it to add a reminder later
    (because the change in WLM only affects the "notifications to your
    devices" reminder in Live Calendar). I will be misled by WLM in
    thinking I can edit a reminderless event to add a reminder to it.

    If I create a new event with a valued reminder (0 minutes, 1 day, 1 week
    or whatever) then the 2nd reminder is added to the event for "Email
    (myaddrs)". However, no matter what I set for the reminder interval in
    WLM, it will always be only 1 hour in the actual event defined in Live
    Calendar. 1 hour is useless to me. I want 0 minutes to get a reminder
    at the time of the event (the event is the reminder) or it's usually a
    day, or more, to give me time to prep for the event.

    WLM's reminder settings only reflects its value set in an event with the
    "notifications to your devices" reminder in Live Calendar. I'm
    discussing WLM here, not some smart phone app, so this alert method is
    worthless to me. The "Email (myaddrs)" alert method is also useless
    since it will always be set to 1 hour instead of 0 minutes (start time),
    1 day, 1 week, or whatever I specified in WLM. So the alert (only via
    e-mail) will not be at the time configured for it in WLM.

    Reminders are useless in WLM. In one scenario, you might set a reminder
    interval but there won't be one defined (for e-mail) in Live Calendar.
    In another scenario, a reminder gets set (for e-mail) but it's always 1
    hour instead of what your specified. Since this discussion is about
    WLM, only the e-mail alert method is germane.


    _Summary_

    - E-mail is the only way to get an alert for a reminder set in a
    calendar event.

    - WLM does not show popup alerts when a reminder fires for an event.
    "Notifications to your devices" is worthless to users of WLM. Only
    alerts sent via e-mail will provide notification to users of WLM.

    - If you create a reminderless event, you will never be able to add an
    [e-mail] reminder (that is honored). The email alert was not added when
    creating a reminderless event and editing the event in WLM to have a
    reminder will not add an email reminder.

    - If you create a remindered event, the time set in WLM is not honored
    in Live Calendar. Email notifications in Live Calendar are always set
    to 1 hour.

    ____________________

    Without reminders (that you can add or remove and set to other than 1
    hour), calendars are pretty worthless. Anyone that keeps bouncing over
    to the calendar view to check their schedule or keep an eye on events
    might as well as just use their web browser to do the same thing. WLM
    isn't needed for having to manually review events.

    Guess I'll just use a local calendaring program (e.g., Thunderbird with
    Lightning add-on since Microsoft decided to omit the Calendar program in
    Windows 7). I need to add reminders to events that didn't previously
    have a reminder set in them. I need the reminder interval that I
    specify to be honored in the program or service that I use. With no
    popups from WLM for reminders and reminders set in WLM not matching in
    Live Calendar, there is no point in using WLM's calendaring function.
    The only remaining viable feature in WLM is e-mail to use Deltasync with
    Hotmail/Live/Outlook.com accounts. With Microsoft adding IMAP access to
    Hotmail, WLM loses its advantage over other e-mail clients.

    Then there is the complete lack of searching for events or listing them
    in either WLM or Live Calendar. I have to scroll through the calendar
    looking for an event that I want to modify or deleted. The event could
    be months or years away so it's easy to miss it as I'm flipping through
    the calendar.

    I trialed WLM back in its version 2009 under Windows XP. That was the
    latest version of WLM that users could get for XP. This trial of WLM
    2012 on Windows 7 is bombing, too. Argh!

    So far, I've found, endured, or suffered:

    - WLM has Deltasync to access e-mail at Hotmail. Webmail access (via
    screen scraping and URL navigation) is unreliable. Microsoft added IMAP
    access so now users can access folders other than the Inbox folder
    (which is all that POP3 can access). For e-mail, WLM lost its advantage
    of having Deltasync support.

    - WLM does not synchronize your local and server copies of your contact
    lists. When offline, you only see your local contacts list in WLM.
    When online (WLM signs into your Hotmail account), you only see your
    Hotmail contacts. WLM doesn't merge (sync) those two contact lists.

    - Calendaring sucks. You can end up with events where you can never add
    (in WLM) effective reminders or the reminder time is not honored (it's
    always 1 hour). You cannot find events by searching or listing them but
    have to manually flip through the months hoping to notice the one(s)
    you're looking for. WLM has no popup for event reminders. E-mail is
    the only method for issuing a reminder for an event.

    - WLM supports feeds. I don't do feeds (so I cannot comment on how well
    or how badly WLM does feeds).

    - WLM sucks for newsgroups after they screwed up quoting. While users
    expect e-mails to have replies prepended onto the body, Usenet generally
    wants new content appended. WLM has only 1 setting for where to
    position the insert point when replying: at the top or at the bottom but
    applies to both e-mail and newsgroups.

    Conclusion: WLM fails yet another trial.

    (I need some chocolate to assuage my frustration.)
     
    VanguardLH, Jan 26, 2014
    #1
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  2. WLM doesn't provide the same web UI reminder options (create event in
    web UI calendar, click View details, scroll to 'Send reminder')


    Since the web UI feature options were updated but not WLM both issues
    are old and designated as 'won't fix' in WLM. i.e. wysiwyg since WLM is
    legacy ware.
     
    ...winston‫, Jan 30, 2014
    #2
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  3. VanguardLH

    VanguardLH Guest

    Thanks for the response. That means reminders are of no use since it is
    rare that I want a 1-hour reminder on an event. So the calendering
    feature of WLM is of no use to me as almost every event I define
    includes a reminder. In fact, I can't think of an event that I've
    created that doesn't have a reminder.

    I'll have to go with a local calendar program so I get the reminders
    when they're needed and also get a popup window to alert me to the
    reminder. Actually the very first deficiency I noticed is no way to
    list all events. I can't even search to find an event. I know that I
    set one but don't remember when and flipping through the calendar is too
    laborious and I could miss the event and have to rescan trying to find
    an event. I have, for example, accidentally specified the wrong date,
    it doesn't show up where I expected, and now I have to way to find out
    where it might've gotten scheduled other than watching the screens as I
    flip through the months.

    I had hoped calendaring was going to be an effective and relatively
    robust feature but it's not looking that way after struggling with it
    for awhile. Tis a pity it wasn't made a stronger feature sooner to also
    ensure WLM incorporated the changes. Looks like Calendar needs a lot
    more work but I'm on the tail end of WLM that won't get changed to
    reflect any of those later changes in Calendar.

    Thanks again for replying.
     
    VanguardLH, Jan 31, 2014
    #3
  4. Keep in mind (I know it sounds like a broken record at times since I've
    mentioned this for a few year) that WLM was designed for initially for
    use with a Hotmail type email account or an email account registered as
    a MSFT account (fka Live Id) and that same account as the signed on
    account to Microsoft (formerly Live ID) services....but not as a
    replacement for using the web UI features only as a local alternative.

    Since all reminders are email (including notice to other capable
    devices) based then the web UI is the primary management location of all
    aspects/features/settings for Calendar data (Likewise that web UI
    central theme applies also to email, contacts, SkyDrive, photo email,
    Office apps, etc.).

    WLM is old code, for all practical purposes save some small
    under-the-hood patches for synchronization robustness (data base
    integrity for contacts and calendar) and IE compatibility the remaining
    is pretty much frozen code since the release of the 2011 version (Fall
    2010 - over 3yrs ago). On the other hand the web UI has had multiple
    feature improvements since then with more expected due to its
    use/integration across other Win8 devices (phones, tablets, pcs, etc)
    and Office 2013 and later.

    As it has been since introduction -- the Live Essentials (v08,v09,v11)
    and Essential (v12) products are secondary to the web UI services and apps.

    If one requires notification in minutes, hours, days, or weeks then its
    incumbent upon the user to establish those in the web UI while
    continuing to have access to creating events locally in WLM with up/down
    synchronization.

    Note: Recently a new/additonal reminder feature(s) will be deployed to
    the web UI calendar (some accounts may already have the option to switch
    to the new reminder feature). The new feature will replace the prior
    thus if a user has the option now and chooses to adopt/switch to the new
    there is no return to the old. Thus at some future point in time...all
    web UI accounts will automatically have the new feature.

    Here are a few screens that show a notification and some additional
    info/ability to choose the new feature.

    http://sdrv.ms/LgOgpc
     
    ...winston‫, Jan 31, 2014
    #4
  5. VanguardLH

    VanguardLH Guest

    Alas, with WLM no longer supported (for RFEs or other non-security
    updates), and for some time now, it appears Microsoft hasn't or won't
    come up with a decent free e-mail client. They're focusing on toy
    computers (aka mobile-centric devices), weak "apps", and with only
    Outlook 2013 supporting EAS to cut the cord on the Outlook Connector
    add-on. OL2013 looks to be the only local e-mail client that Microsoft
    is expending any resources and no decent freebie alternatives from
    Microsoft. Guess they're really focusing on changing from the unit
    sales model to the subscription model with Office 365 at $99/year but
    aren't those all web apps (i.e., Outlook 365 is just the webmail client
    you can visit via outlook.com but spiffed up to look like a client
    program and maybe with an offline store)?

    The problem with a webmail client is that you must be online to use it.
    Local e-mail clients give you the option of offline access to your
    message store. Of course, with WLM, you run into the old problem that
    you see your local contacts store instead of the server-side one because
    WLM doesn't merge (sync) those two. Maybe that's the same for Calendar
    and only the e-mails are sync'ed locally for offline access. I use the
    the webmail client as a last ditch effort much like I would use Google
    Groups as the last ditch method to submit a post to Usenet. Disgusting
    but doable.

    Thunderbird has its defects, too (I've run into several of which some
    I've already asked about over in the Tbird newsgroup) but it seems the
    best choice right now despite that it, too, has dropped further
    development other than to roll in codes changes from other projects and
    provide security updates. Argh! It's like the market for local e-mail
    clients for full computers (i.e., home PCs) has dried up with the best
    remaining choice being a $100 payware program (OL2013) or a $99 yearly
    subscription (Office 365).
    With WLM further behind slogging through the muck of non-sync'ed
    features. I don't see the prompt at the bottom of the Calendar page.
    This is what I see:

    http://tinypic.com/r/2dweurc/8
    (click on pic to enlarge)
    (click on "View Raw Image" to enlarge further)

    Is that the old or new reminder feature?

    P.S.
    I would've thought by now that calendar.live.com would've moved over the
    outlook.com domain as calendar.outlook.com to further disassociate
    itself from the "Live" moniker.
     
    VanguardLH, Jan 31, 2014
    #5
  6. Outlook 365 (Home Premium - vanilla $99/yr versions, up to 5 users)
    requires internet access which installs the applications but operates
    differently than using the web UI Office apps though it is not a
    traditional desktop installed set of applications. For those needing the
    full desktop client one needs to choose the Office 365 Small Business
    Premium ($150 per year or $15 per mo, up to 25 users.) Comparatively
    the cost for the stand-alone desktop suite are: Office 2013 Home and
    Student -$140; and Office Home and Business 2013 - $220. The 365
    versions annual cost/subscription provide free upgrades to the latest
    released versions unlike the stand-alone desktop suites.
    The local contact (no sign on to Microsoft services) is the called the
    'Default' contacts and stored in a local contact database. When signed
    on to MSFT services (in WLM with a MSFT account) the contact mode
    switches to the MSFT contact database and is stored locally and sync'ed
    up and down (changes made locally or in the web UI sync). Calendar data
    follows the same...one local default database (no signon) or the MSFT
    account's calendar - like contacts, one only stored locally and the
    other stored locally and online and syncable. Signing in WLM with
    another MSFT account will build/create or sync an additional local and
    online contact and calendar database.

    In all cases, the email accounts (Send and Receive, etc) function
    independently of either mode (no signon, signon with a MSFT account).

    The local only (Default) mode is the backward compatibility token for
    the XP/OE and Vista/Windows Mail user (one common contacts list) and an
    additional feature (local only but simple calendar).

    Thus it's relatively clear the design intent was to focus on the Hotmail
    type account population...but even more significantly by focusing on
    that 'signed on' population they provided a built-in telemetric method
    to gather data across the balance of the suite (Photo Gallery, Messenger
    for a period of time, Live Mesh/Sky Drive use) in a desktop suite of
    clients for integrated cloud services. I.e. the availabilty of
    telemetric data was imo the primary vehicle for the entire Live Platform
    with the desktop applications secondary. Knowing full well that the 0.5
    billion Hotmail type accounts wouldn't all take advantage of it...but by
    excluding a mail client in Windows 7, they would still gain a
    significant usage population to gather significant data from a more
    than adequate sample size for statisical purposes (correlation,
    confidence level, error, etc.)
    I never liked Thunderbird. I still prefer Outlook as my primary email
    client and grow more accustomed to using OL13 EAS for Hotmail type
    accounts (though redundantly to WLM) since OL13/EAS allows me to have
    multiple contact and calendars (one common contact and calendar for POP3
    accounts and a unique contact and calendar for each Hotmail type EAS
    account.). SeaMonkey is a decent alternative for the imo, rapidly dying
    'nntp/usenet' arena - it has its quirks but I've transitioned easily to
    satiate the usenet luddites though since I moderate a few private nntp
    groups that welcome html, inserted or embedded graphics, top/bottom
    posting, etc. WLM continues to be the best and most flexible alternative
    for those groups.
    From what I can see some accounts already have the new features while
    others don't and some accounts are provided the option to start using
    the new features (without the option to resort the old).

    On an account that I've switched to the the 'new' reminders feature I
    see the same dialog box.

    If you look at the second picture in the url I posted...the new features
    provide the options to set up multiple reminders for each event and send
    them to your email address. Also, the ability to setup different
    reminders for each of your calendars.
    - if the above options are available then the 'new' has been deployed
    or chosen.
    :) Many have had that thought and continue to still ask why/when! At
    this stage any guess is as good as another.
     
    ...winston‫, Feb 1, 2014
    #6
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