How can I back up SBS 2008 VM inside Hyper-V Server 2008 R2

Discussion in 'Windows Small Business Server' started by RobWW, Jul 7, 2009.

  1. RobWW

    RobWW Guest

    I am wondering if anyone has been here before? How can I back up SBS
    2008 VM inside Hyper-V Server 2008 R2? Backup Exec 12.5 was looking
    attractive but it has to be installed on the host O/S and I am limited
    with what I can do with Hyper-V Server 2008 R2.

    I am looking for the least expensive way to provided an SBS 2008
    customer with their own Blackberry server (under 30 users) and I was
    hoping virtualization was the answer but the more I dice this up, the
    more a second server for the BES seems like the direction to take.

    I can install SBS 2008 and Server 2003 (for BES) on one Hyper-V Server
    2008 R2 box with the least amount of licensing, but now I am
    restricted to how I can back it up.

    I can use Windows Server 2008 Standard with the Hyper-V role but I am
    limited to one VM and I need two. An Enterprise version of Windows
    Server 2008 is too costly. Am I doomed?
     
    RobWW, Jul 7, 2009
    #1
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  2. RobWW

    kj [SBS MVP] Guest

    Limited by what?
    Second physical server vs. a second virtual server? Why does a second
    physical server be your direction for this?
    Again why. You can do pass through disks for both servers or use third party
    products. R2, although still an RC (cautions about deploying in prodcution)
    still gives you the ability to do VHD copies and backups. Is it just a
    matter of a third party VSS enabled backup software package for R2?
    Your licensing is the same. You will need two server licenses for this. One
    SBS 2008 and one Server 2003 standard (BES). If you buy SBS premium you can
    use the Premium Standard second server license for management (which
    includes backing up the virtual servers) and running the SBS VM's and BES
    VMs.
     
    kj [SBS MVP], Jul 7, 2009
    #2
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  3. RobWW

    RobWW Guest

    Limited by the fact Backup Exec requirements so not include Hyper-V
    Server 2008
    Because I have not found a solution to back up the SBS server yet.
    I guess I don't fully understand passthrough disks. I connected a USB
    drive to my Hyper Server 2008 R2 and it shows up as drive E:. In SBS
    2008 I tried to add a hard drive thinking I could access drive E:
    physically through SBS but all it did was create a VHD on E:. Where
    did I go wrong? It would be Ideal to access E: directly because then
    I could use the backup in SBS.
    I count more. First I have to buy WS08 to be my Hypervisor. The I
    have to buy SBS 2008 and another server license for the BES. I am up
    to three so far, but Windows Server 2008 Standard (my Hypervisor) only
    supports one VM. For this reason, I am trying to make Hyper-V Server
    2008 R2 work. I am hoping my the time I have all the kinks worked out
    and have this tested on my network, R2 will be released.

    Thanks for your help.
     
    RobWW, Jul 7, 2009
    #3
  4. RobWW

    kj [SBS MVP] Guest

    OK, but seems like a BE limitation more so than a HV one.
    SBS included backup can work with some limitations and with third party (USB
    over Net) products. R2 (RTM) gives you hot swap VHD's and with a little work
    (Powershell) should make for a semiautomated method for 'offsite' storage.
    Agreed the solutions aren't what I'd call 'mature'.
    Passthrough disks need to be offline to the host to be available to the VM
    guest. With Hyper-V server you'd need to use diskpart commands.
    SBS premium includes a second server with full (1+1) virutalization
    licensing. This second server can be both the virtualizations (& management
    only) and a second full installation instance. Then SBS is a second VM
    instance. If BES would run on 2008 standard you'd be done. But I think you
    need 2003 and I don't think you can just downgrade the 2008 virtual machine
    to 2003 and keep the 2008 Virtualization parent. So, you need a second
    product purchase of 2003 standard server for BES.

    but Windows Server 2008 Standard (my Hypervisor) only
    No, it is not limited in the number of Virtual Machines (guests). Windows
    Server 2008 standard includes 1 license for the virtualization host (&
    management) and 1 license for up to a full implementation in virtual.
    Additional virtual machines are allowed but you must bring your own OS
    license for these virtual machines.

    It does get confusing. It's MS licensing after all.


    For this reason, I am trying to make Hyper-V Server
    R2 doesn't change really any of this besides adding some new features and
    roles to the server core and hyper-v support.
     
    kj [SBS MVP], Jul 7, 2009
    #4
  5. RobWW

    RobWW Guest

    Thanks kj. Since you post I received clarification on the licensing
    issue but I still do not want to make WS08 the parent.

    I researched pass-through a little more, added a SCSI controller and
    tried to add my USB drive but received the 'offline' warning you
    mentioned. Now I will read up on diskpart commands.

    Thanks
     
    RobWW, Jul 7, 2009
    #5
  6. RobWW

    kj [SBS MVP] Guest

    OK, but why? Server standard as the 'parent' should support BE install and
    'backup' should be considered as part of VM 'management and operations' if
    you decided to go that way. Don't know if current BE would support the host
    VSS writer and backup of live VHD's or not.


     
    kj [SBS MVP], Jul 7, 2009
    #6
  7. RobWW

    RobWW Guest

    This seems to be coming together bit-by-bit. I used DiskPart to
    offline the the USB drive E: attached to the Hypervisor. I added a
    SCSI controller in SBS 2008 and attached it to the USB drive. In SBS
    2008, the drive shows up as a local drive E:.

    I ran the backup wizard in SBS 2008 and it took ownership of E: and
    set it up for scheduled backups. This is exactly what I want and I
    hope it works when USB drives are swapped. Lately I have been
    ordering servers with Dell's RD1000 backup and cartridges which are
    just packaged SATA drives. Technically it should work here if Hyper-V
    Server 2008 R2 does not choke when the RD1000 cartridges are swapped
    out.

    I am not to concerned about backing up BES other than a snapshot
    because it does not house any irreplaceable data like Exchange server.

    I have had other opinions expressed about the high overhead of BE and
    its impact on a VM environment because of all the Windows services. If
    I were to install WS08 and enable they Hyper-V role and then install
    BE into this, BE being a resource hog could impact the WS08 parent
    partition which could have a could effect on any of the VMs.

    It was suggested that with the Hyper-V role enabled in WS08, it is not
    recommended to install any application on the parent partition in a
    production environment. As long as I can get the results with Hyper-V
    Server 2008, and my pass-through disk works, I am a happy camper.

    Thank you for bringing pass-through to my attention.

     
    RobWW, Jul 7, 2009
    #7
  8. RobWW

    kj [SBS MVP] Guest

    I hate to be a bubble burster, but this is where things unravel a bit. The
    passthrough disks aren't swappable like you were able to do with 2003 and
    physical implementations. SBS backup will see them as different disks and
    with the new backup technology won't give you the result you are looking
    for. You might want to consider an image copy method for the passthrough
    backup disk instead of swapping out different disks or media.

    I believe the RD1000's don't play well with this solution - for a variety of
    reasons. Perhaps others that have evaluated these both in physical and in
    virtual will jump in or you can search past discussions about the same
    thing.

    Yes, it is a consideration, but often a backup running in the middle of the
    night presents a low impact to the VM's. There are also so some resource
    tunning that can assist as well.
    Generally good advice, but for the purpose of management of the VM's that
    should be put into perspective. I wouldn't want a demanding host application
    running at the same time as peak guest VM performance was desired.

     
    kj [SBS MVP], Jul 8, 2009
    #8
  9. RobWW

    RobWW Guest

    I read that Hyper-V Server 2008 R2 allowed hot add/remove pass-through
    disks provided they were on the SCSI controller and not the IDE
    controller. Have you tried first-hand swapping pass-through disks set
    up in my senario with SBS backup? I am not doubting what you say, but
    considering this is a test setup I don't mind spending another $118
    for a matching second drive to find out for sure.

    Thanks,

     
    RobWW, Jul 8, 2009
    #9
  10. RobWW

    kj [SBS MVP] Guest

    I have not, and in review this does indeed look "do-able" using R2 and given
    that its realease is imminent looks quite viable.

    Please report back on your findings.

     
    kj [SBS MVP], Jul 8, 2009
    #10
  11. RobWW

    RobWW Guest

    I bought a second drive this morning, tried it and it failed. It
    seems Hyper-V Server 2008 sees the swapped drives OK but SBS fails to
    see the drive when it is swapped. I wonder if it assigns a GUID to
    the drive.

    The first time I swapped the drives with the new USB drive, I had to
    'offline' it. Then only Disk 0 showed up in DiskPart. I issued a
    'rescan' command and both disks showed up. From that point there was
    no problem swapping the disks on the Hypervisor. I would do a 'list
    disk' is DiskPart after swapping the drives and each drive showed up
    uniquely.

    Inside SBS 2008 was a different story. After swapping in the new disk
    and scheduling the backup to run, the backup failed with an error that
    it was unable to find the disk. There is an SBS wizrd that allows you
    to change/modify the backup job currently scheduled. In there is a
    button to 'rescan' the available drives and there is no doubt it saw
    drive E: as a backup disk.

    I plugged the original disk disk back in and schedule the backup to
    run and it ran fine. I think I am going to take the second USB drive
    I bought and try to configure it like it like the first disk SBS took
    ownership over. I am going to run the backup wizard a second time on
    the new USB drive.

     
    RobWW, Jul 8, 2009
    #11
  12. RobWW

    RobWW Guest

    It looks like I am back to square one. Hyper-V Server will recognize
    the drives being swapped but Server 2008 won't. It's almost as if the
    SCSI controller in the VM binds itself to the physical disk.

    I have done a 'rescan' in DiskPart and I have also re-ran the backup
    wizard in SBS. It only sees the initial disk set up in the SCSI
    controller.

    Also, I can't see USB over Ethernet working either because noen of the
    software I looked at supports Hyper-V Server where part of the utility
    would have to be installed.

    One of the reasons I had ruled out WS08 with the Hyper-V role enabled
    was because of the added cost to the customer. If the customer wanted
    SBS 2008 and a BES, they would have to buy WS08 for the hypervisor,
    SBS 2008, and WS08 for the BES.

     
    RobWW, Jul 8, 2009
    #12
  13. RobWW

    RobWW Guest

    Update:

    I am trying the VHD route. In SBS I have created a 100GB VHD on drive
    E: which is the USB drive plugged into Hyper-V Server 2008.

    After it was created, I went into Disk Manager in SBS, activated it,
    gave it a drive letter E:, formatted it and then took it offline.

    I shut down SBS (VM), unlugged the USB drive from the hypervisor and
    plugged in the second, matching USB drive. Hyper-V Server 2008 R2 has
    hot-swap capabilities. I went itto the settings for SBS and removed
    the original VHD. I am now recreating the VHD with the same volume
    name and fixed size as the one I just deleted.

    I am hoping that I can do a Windows Server Backup to these drives and
    be able to swap them out by setting them 'offline' in Disk Manager
    before the swap. It takes a really long time to make a 100GB VHD!

    I sent an e-mail to Charlie Russel and I don't think he got it. Paging
    Charlie if you are out there :)

     
    RobWW, Jul 10, 2009
    #13
  14. RobWW

    peterm

    Joined:
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    Location:
    Maryland
    I wrote about a tool on my blog

    Hi
    you can run this backup tool which i describe on my blog. I found it recently and it is the alternative to backup exec we were looking for.
    Like in your case, our budget cuts were enormous so we had to settle for something that works and we can pay. The nice thing about this utility is its support for incremental backups of live virtual machines
    Hope this helps!
    Peter
     
    peterm, Apr 1, 2010
    #14
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