How to stop aggregating Safe Sender lists in multiple accounts w/Deltasync?

Discussion in 'Windows Live Mail' started by VanguardLH, Jan 23, 2014.

  1. VanguardLH

    VanguardLH Guest

    Windows Live Mail 2012
    Windows 7 x64

    For now, I've deleted my Hotmail accounts and recreated them with manual
    configuration to be IMAP accounts because of the following problem. I
    would prefer to use HTTP/Deltasync.

    I have 3 Hotmail accounts. Each has their own separate Safe Senders
    whitelist. They are NOT the same. A safe sender in one account is not
    necessarily a safe sender in another account. In one Hotmail account
    (personal), there are about 3 safe senders. In Hotmail account (an
    opt-in only account by using Exclusive mode and where I add a allowed
    sender to the Safe Senders list), there are about 3 dozen safe senders
    (half of which are for forum messages). In a 3rd Hotmail account (for
    untrusted/unknown senders hence somewhat disposable), no senders are
    safe listed.

    If I use WLM with HTTP/Deltasync to access these 3 Hotmail accounts, it
    mashes up (aggregates) the Safe Senders lists from each of them. It
    takes the 3 from one account and adds in the 3 dozen from another
    account. This because WLM has only a single Safe Senders whitelist. It
    doesn't have one for each account. The result is that 1st Hotmail
    account that had only 3 safe senders now has its 3 plus the 3 dozen from
    the other account. The 2nd account has its 3 dozen plus the 3 from the
    first account. And the 3rd account that was not to have any safe
    senders now has over 3 dozen safe senders!

    This isn't just a problem in WLM's local Safe Senders list. When WLM
    synchronizes with my 3 Hotmail accounts, it uploads that mashed together
    whitelist into each of my 3 Hotmail accounts. A safe sender in one
    account is not necessarily a safe sender in a different account. I have
    different accounts for different purposes and I want to keep them that
    way regardless of what e-mail client I happen to use to access them.
    Deltasync in WLM is screwing up my purposed accounts by migrating safe
    senders between them.

    To avoid this problem, I've had to delete my HTTP/Deltasync Hotmail
    accounts and create IMAP Hotmail accounts. That will prevent WLM from
    stepping on my *separate* Safe Senders whitelist in each Hotmail
    account. However, Microsoft seems still too inexperienced with IMAP as
    I've run into synchronization problems with IMAP. For example, a
    message deleted in an Inbox folder in WLM will disappear but still
    appears in the Inbox folder when I visit using the webmail client. No
    amount of synchronizing will get them in sync. If I select the phantom
    item in the webmail client, a toolbar message appears telling me had a problem with the message. I can still read it but
    there is some error state associated with the item. So WLM and the
    webmail client get out of sync as to what items show up in a folder.
    There's also the problem of subfolders disappearing or having to create
    a dummy subfolder to get the others to show up on a re-download of
    folders and then deleting the dummy folder; i.e., subfolders get out of
    sync between WLM and the webmail client.

    Since Microsoft has more experience with Deltasync (which they created
    back in 2005 but didn't implement in Hotmail until 2009) and IMAP is
    new to them, I'd like to go back to using Deltasync. However, if I
    cannot get WLM to stop mashing together Safe Senders lists across
    multiple accounts then I cannot use Deltasync.

    I'm not saying Deltasync is perfect but I've had more problems using
    IMAP than I did with Deltasync. The problem with aggregating Safe
    Senders lists across multiple accounts is a defect in the design of WLM
    in having just one whitelist instead of one for each account (or not
    having the whitelist at all and relying entirely on the server-side
    whitelist), not necessarily with Deltasync. Although I asked on how to
    get WLM to stop this rude behavior when using Deltasync, I suspect there
    is no cure and I'm stuck using IMAP in which case I'll probably switch
    to Mozilla Thunderbird to use IMAP there and subscribe to my Hotmail
    calendar via ICS.
    VanguardLH, Jan 23, 2014
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  2. VanguardLH

    StephenB Guest

    Hello, VanguardLH.

    I'm afraid that you are correct that this is by design. It has irritated me in
    the past, too.
    With the inclusion of the Mail app in Windows 8 and the renaming of Windows Live
    Essentials to Windows Essentials and pretty much all references to Windows Live
    gone from everywhere except these legacy applications that make up the
    Essentials suite, I don't know that there is or will be any development on
    Windows Live Mail. However, if you wish to submit feedback, this link is still
    live. What I don't know is if the submissions are reviewed any longer.

    I believe that you also know that discussion for Windows Live Mail is now
    handled in the Microsoft Community forums as Microsoft no longer hosts these
    newsgroups. The microsoft.public groups only exist on the nntp servers that
    didn't/don't honor the remove group messages when the host servers were brought
    If there is any development on the product, feedback via a forum thread may also
    catch someone's eye.
    Windows Live Mail can be found here in the forum:

    StephenB, Jan 24, 2014
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  3. VanguardLH

    VanguardLH Guest

    I was afraid that isolation of the server-side whitelists (Safe Senders)
    was not possible when using WLM with Deltasync. This really screws up
    the purposing of my Hotmail/Live/ accounts. Not only does
    WLM screw up my separate whitelists (by merging them together and
    proliferating the merged list into each account) but I found the junk
    filtering in WLM will screw up my accounts, too.

    2 of my accounts use the Standard filter mode (you cannot turn off spam
    filtering at the server, the same as at Gmail). 1 account uses
    Exclusive mode (with its Safe Senders list) to provide an opt-in-only
    account: only authorized senders are accepted and all others, including
    spam, get rejected. Alas, if I set WLM to low, high, or exclusive mode
    then ALL ACCOUNTS are forced to the same mode. The only way around this
    with WLM is to *not* have it enabled for junk filtering (no filtering).
    Then WLM will leave the Standard/Exclusive mode alone as set on the
    server in the account. I was hoping to include the Bayesian filter in
    WLM with the server-side spam filtering along with white- and blacklists
    but WLM forces the same filter mode on all accounts when using
    Deltasync. Again this is because WLM uses a single or global filter
    mode on all Deltasync accounts instead of maintaining them separately.
    Despite showing the accounts as separate in the folder pane, too much of
    their configuration is merged under a single set of global settings.

    I really didn't want to go with Thunderbird because I'd have to add the
    Lightning add-on for calendaring and then subscribe to my Hotmail
    calendars along with adding the MinimizeToTray revived add-on to get
    Tbird minimized to a tray icon instead of always occupying a button in
    the taskbar. I would say, however, that IMAP seems to get handled
    better in Tbird than in WLM in that updating is faster or more
    transparent. With WLM, I have to change focus to another folder (but
    update on the prior folder is still slow) or sync all yet the webmail
    client is still slow to reflect what I see in WLM.

    I've seen someone (probably winston) comment that Deltasync is the
    recommended method to access Hotmail/Live/ accounts except
    WLM's design screws up maintaining separate Safe Senders whitelists in
    each account and filter mode can get screwed up (important on accounts
    where you want Exclusive mode but not in other accounts). Deltasync
    might be the "recommended" access method for Microsoft e-mail accounts
    but it's not usable to me due to the rude behaviors exhibited as it is
    implemented in WLM. With Thunderbird and using IMAP, I never got those
    phantom e-mails that were absent in Tbird but shown in Hotmail's webmail
    client (with an error reported when you select them).
    VanguardLH, Jan 24, 2014
  4. VanguardLH

    StephenB Guest

    Yes, indeed. This issue affected me, too. My solution was to drop the accounts
    from WL Mail that I was trying to set as Exclusive to eliminate viewing spam and
    only use WL Mail for a few other accounts.
    StephenB, Jan 24, 2014
  5. VanguardLH

    VanguardLH Guest

    Well, I figured out a workaround. Instead of listing good senders in
    the Safe Sender list, I moved them to rules. Same for the Blocked
    Senders list. The most tedious one was the account where I had 44 Safe
    Senders (no Blocked Senders since it was in Exclusive mode). One
    account didn't have any Safe or Blocked Senders and another only had
    about 3 safe senders and 2 blocked senders.

    I unloaded WLM. Then I defined a rule for each safe sender that
    typically looked like "Sender's address" "ends with" and a value that
    might be @domain.tld or .domain.tld (if they used a hostname). So I
    ended up adding lots of "safe sender" rules to one account. The Safe
    Senders and Blocked Senders lists were completely empty on the server.
    I disabled the LAN connection and loaded WLM (which, of course,
    complained it could get to the servers). I emptied its Safe Senders and
    Block Senders lists, enabled the LAN connection, and watched WLM as it
    updated over some time. WLM's lists didn't populate. There were no
    entries up on the server. WLM can't see the safe and blocked senders
    specified in rules.

    I read somewhere that Hotmail/Live/ lets you define up to 250
    rules in an account. My largest whitelist had 44 entries, so I have
    lots of room to add more safe senders; however, the whitelist is pretty
    much static now and only gets an addition after maybe several months.
    The 44 count was amassed over many many years.

    So I use rules up on the server to whitelist and blacklist the senders.
    That eliminates WLM from aggregating those lists across multiple
    accounts and then later uploading those aggregate lists into each
    account. I configure WLM to *not* use its junk filter which leaves
    alone the Standard/Exclusive mode server-side settings for each account.
    VanguardLH, Jan 24, 2014
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