IE7: Various severe steps back

Discussion in 'Internet Explorer' started by GHL, Nov 12, 2006.

  1. GHL

    GHL Guest

    I've just started using the IE7 and found that various features are rather
    steps back than forward as advertized by Microsoft.

    I hope that Microsoft takes up that criticism and tries to rethink whether
    it not be better to improve these shortcomes, which btw worked in IE6.

    1. Menu bar below the URL bar. This is not very logical. MS does not provide
    a native way for fixing this; fortunately there is a registry tweak in the
    internet, which can revert this. Maybe MS should provide an option for the
    user to decide on his own which way it should be or default to the design
    known from IE6.

    2. When starting the IE one notices that the web content looks a bit
    blurred. My notebook PC has a 15,4" screen but even though the cleartype
    font defaulted on looks awful. Maybe it be better to default it to off
    rather than making the average user think the IE7 cannot display better and
    make them switch to alternative browsers...

    3. Favorites: When switching on the left Favorites side menu you notice that
    the (left, right and bottom) frame separators are to broad, which on the one
    hand looks disproportionate, on the other hand is not very practical. The
    frame separators should be as narrow as the frame separators of the main IE
    window (see bottom or right side of the IE main window). Apparently there is
    no way to changes this or none that I know of.

    4. Favorites: The individual favicons are defaulted to IE own standard icon
    when upgrading to IE7. They only re-appear when surfing to these URLs again.

    5. Favorites: This is definitely the worst ... When clicking on the
    Favorites menu | Add to Favorites, an
    unmanageable box appears, where *all* folders and *all* subfolders are
    expanded. I have numerous folders and subfolders, which are easy to find my
    way around when they're not all expanded, but this box expands them all by
    default, and there doesn't appear to be any way to contract them [quoted
    from an other posting, which I strongly agree with].

    This is a *BIG*, *BIG* disadvantage compared to IE6 and Firefox !!!!
    Currently I have both the IE7 and the FF2 installed. If Microsoft is not
    going to correct this severe problem I will stop using the IE7 ! Meanwhile I
    will try to find out what other users think of this policy and write
    postings into various forums (Computer Magazines, Blogs etc.)

    Obviously the Microsoft Community here does not regard this as a
    disadvantage, which I cannot understand.
    Including an option for RSS maybe nice, but definitely the capability of a
    browser to offer a proper and powerful bookmark management is far more
    important than frills like that.

    I'd like to know what others think about these "features" !
    GHL, Nov 12, 2006
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  2. This does not happen here and I don't know yet why it happens to some
    What if you right click the IE icon on the desktop and choose Start Without
    Frank Saunders, MS-MVP OE/WM, Nov 12, 2006
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  3. GHL

    jonah Guest

    This is not an official Microsoft Community its a self help newsgroup
    hosted by MSFT. Some of the respondents work for Microsof but they are
    here as voluenteers on their own time like everybody else in here.

    I think you will find that a lot of people not just in here have major
    issues with this version of IE for the reasons you stated above and
    because of the silly, pointless changing about of the layout every
    other browser in the world uses and the lack of any meaningful
    customisation without resorting to registry hacks.

    Also it does not work with a lot of existing, browser toolbars,
    security suites etc causing all sorts of problems. This is not
    entirely the fault of IE7 but partly the fault of 3rd party vendors
    who have not updated their own stuff for IE7 - anyway thats not the
    point it has IMHO been poorly tested and shoved out half finished as a
    "priority update" when in fact its like a Beta1.

    If you want to have a go at MSFT please do so, you will need to dig up
    a relevent e mail address, but as they only seem to listen to
    marketing morons and dishwasher focus groups, good luck!

    jonah, Nov 12, 2006
  4. GHL

    GHL Guest

    Hello Frank,

    thanks for your response.
    I'm however not absolutely sure if we speak about the same.
    Well, let's just check for that.

    First of all I'm just running into the problem of having to explain what I
    mean to people, who have installed the original (English) version of the
    IE7, while I have the German localized one... :-(
    However it is the final version - or at least what's MS calls "final" - i.e.
    V 7.0.5730.11, which is still on their website (just checked, there is no
    later version than that).
    Also I had *NO* prior beta version of the IE7 installed (reason: MS's
    strange de-installation policy, making it very often impossible to
    de-install betas without running the risk of reverting to an earlier state,
    e.g. to a pre-SP2 state, and then re-installing everything else again; won't
    do that with my production system...); also my system was on SP2 with all
    security updates etc. So all requirements claimed by MS were met.

    OK, let's then try to describe what I am finding in my own words lacking the
    genuine captions from the English language version (my apologies in

    If you click on Favorites | Add to Favorites on the menu bar a small windows
    pops up, showing the name of the current URL and a drop-down menu below. If
    you open this drop-down menue the complete and *EXPANDED* tree of all your
    Favorites subfolders opens up, thus showing - in my case - a huge list which
    has to be scrolled through in order to drop the Favorite into the desired
    Favorites folder.

    This compromises the purpose of creating Favorite folders completely as it
    becomes extremely troublesome to scroll through well over 200 sub-folders in
    my case.

    In IE6 as well as Firefox the folder tree showing up is *COLLAPSED* with a
    "+" in front of every folder, allowing it to expand and collapse again as

    You said that this isn't what is showing in your IE7.

    Well, if you click on Favorites | Manage Favorites (or whatever it is really
    called in the English version of IE7, it's the 3rd entry from the top) a
    small windows shows up with the complete *COLLAPSED* Favorites tree !!!
    Though not showing a "+" at the beginning you can expand each subtree and
    collapse it again.
    However the buttons at the bottom of this window just allow to add a new
    folder, move the folders, rename them or delete them. No opion in this
    window to add the current URL to a (sub-) folder here.

    I am asking: Why did'n MS add HERE IN THIS WINDOW an option also for
    managing/adding URLs to (sub-)folders ? This would then also make obsolete
    this crappy window I described above, which only offers the completely
    expanded Favorites tree.

    This definitely *IS* a severe PROBLEM or bug, whatever you'd like to call

    Contrary to the "shorcomings" I described in my original posting, THIS is
    something which is really UNACCEPTABLE as it makes practical work with the
    IE7 almost impossible !!!!
    GHL, Nov 12, 2006
  5. GHL

    GHL Guest

    Well expressed, Jonah !

    Actually I am sad to say that but I fully agree.

    Actually I am very disappointed about Microsoft ! Other than the release of
    Firefox 2.0, which was surely seen as a marketing challenge by Microsoft, I
    think there hasn't been a big demand by the community for a major release
    upgrade of the IE.

    If problems of that kind occur in a Beta it is the problem of those, who
    decide to install a beta. In this case MS itself declared the IE7 "final"
    and is even shortly including it as "priority update" into their Windows
    Update !

    You are right, the IE7 has been very poorly tested, as significant problems
    are evident already at first sight function-wise as well as in the top-level

    Jonah, I know that this is no "official" MS Community, but where will I find
    such an official MS Community ?

    Kind regards,
    ....who is speechless over the nature of these bugs in a version officially
    called "final" :-(
    GHL, Nov 12, 2006
  6. GHL

    GHL Guest

    There is one workaround for adding a URL to one's Favorites tree.
    If you have the left Favorites sidebar active you can expand the tree where
    you decided to include the new URL, click at the icon in the URL bar, drag
    and have it dropped into the sidebar at the appropriate place.

    Nevertheless, as I and many others here and elsewhere said: Microsoft has to
    correct this drawback in IE7 as soon as possible as otherwise their
    Favorites Manager would be useless.

    GHL, Nov 12, 2006
  7. Hi Frank

    The 5th point of what GHL speaks about is present in IE 7 and he is right,
    this is really a bad feature. I cannot use properly <ADD TO FAVORITES>
    function because I have a lot of folders in my FAVORITES. All folders in the
    FAVORITES are expanded in the ADD-TO-FAVORITES-display and it is not possible
    to collapse them. As GHL says: "This compromises the purpose of creating
    Favorite folders completely as it becomes extremely troublesome to scroll
    through well over 200 sub-folders in my case."

    Aleksandar Katanovic, Nov 12, 2006
  8. GHL

    Sirc Guest

    When I tried to add to favorites, my folders were not expanded. Strange.

    Sirc, Nov 12, 2006
  9. On my English version when I click the star overlaid by a green plus sign
    the Add to Favorites option is at the top. When I click it all folders are
    collapsed. To add the new site to a folder, I just click the down arrow for
    the Create in box and all folders appear without their contents. I click the
    folder I want to add to and then click Add and it's done.

    The New Folder button is beside the Create in box, Add and Cancel are below

    I have always used Windows Explorer to manage Favorites, except for
    alphabetizing a folder.

    Frank Saunders, MS-MVP OE/WM
    Answer in newsgroup. Don't send mail.

    Frank Saunders, MS-MVP OE/WM, Nov 12, 2006
  10. Not for me, as I said before! When I click Add to Favorites the folders are
    NOT expanded. I'm trying to find an answer by communicating with people who
    do have the problem.

    And as I asked before but no one seems to want to answer: What if you start
    IE by right clicking the IE icon on the desktop and choose Start Without
    Add-ons? Until someone answers this relatively simple question I can't get
    any farther in trying to find a solution.
    Frank Saunders, MS-MVP OE/WM, Nov 12, 2006
  11. GHL

    jonah Guest

    So you would think they would get it right no? Firefox 2 is superb,
    just works no hassle, no problems. For me if a site insists on IE then
    I go elsewhere or spoof the site into thinking I am running IE if
    there is no other way. I don't even use IE for updates I get them
    elsewhere. I only run a couple of Winboxes for work puropses, most of
    my stuff is either on Fedora FC5 & 6 or Suse 10. I use a Win test box
    to check out all the latest MSFT disasters cos I spen half my life
    fixing windows boxes, never had a serious problem on a Linux box yet,
    wonder why :cool:

    To be fair IE7 works fine with Vista for which it was designed, I am
    thinking the XP version was a bit of an afterthought by some of the
    25,000 managers at Redmond who stuck the 5 or 6 devs who do all the
    work with it when they are already snowed under with Vista, it got
    rushed out and bodged a bit.
    Yeah thats my major beef with it, it should have remained a beta till
    Vista is released fully in January and offered as an optional upgrade
    with caveats attached not pushed as a "high priotity". But then its
    earning me a few bucks at the moment so a big thanks to MSFT for
    another great money spinner.
    I would stick to your complain to PC World etc idea and people like
    that, MSFT don't listen to their own coders let alone ordinary paying
    customers whom they seem to hold in utter contempt. The press OTOH is
    a different kettle of fish, then there is always the EU who hate MSFT
    with a passion, worth an e mail to your MEP maybe.

    There are plenty of places to send comments and gripes but they all
    end up directly in the Redmond recycle bin which is probably nearly as
    big as google's servers.

    If you were a MVP you would have access to private MSFT NGs for MVPs
    which may be regarded with a bit more weight, hopefully the many MVPs
    in here are passing the general gripes on to MSFT.Jonah
    jonah, Nov 12, 2006
  12. GHL

    AndrueC Guest

    Those of us on the beta did give them some feedback but out of the few issues
    I raised the only one they sort of addressed was Clear Type. At least now it
    gives an option to disable it as part of RunOnce.Asp.

    Unfortunately it defaults to enabled and as another poster here wrote it
    looks awful.

    I continue to be amazed by MS' view of ClearType. I used to know of one
    person that used it but even he switched it off after a month or so. I just
    don't understand why MS think it's so good.

    I also hate the new way that MS has implemented text selection in edit
    boxes. That one click selects all instead of one click to position the cursor.
    AndrueC, Nov 13, 2006
  13. "Until someone answers this relatively simple question"

    Hi Frank,

    I can answer your "simple question" by simply stating that it doesn't make
    any difference(on my end) how IE7 is opened(with add-ons or without
    add-ons), the results are the same. The Favorite folders are always
    expanded as is illustrated in this screenshot:

    Donald Anadell
    Donald Anadell, Nov 13, 2006
  14. Okay, thanks. Now I need to look for something else. I still can't
    reproduce it on three different machines. Still trying, though.
    Frank Saunders, MS-MVP OE/WM, Nov 13, 2006
  15. It improves the font all all seven of our machines.
    Frank Saunders, MS-MVP OE/WM, Nov 13, 2006

  16. Frank,

    It may help to describe how you are using it.
    E.g. pressing Ctrl-d,Tab,F4 shows me all my subfolders
    expanded with no apparent way of unexpanding them.

    Related to this I suspect will be whether
    Close unused folders in History and Favorites
    (Options, Advanced tab, Browsing section)
    does anything for you or not.

    I haven't found anything in IE that that option changes.
    E.g. I thought it might at least close any subfolders I had opened
    but moved away from before closing the Favorites bar.

    Specifically, with the option checked, try this test:
    1. Ctrl-Shift-i (to open and pin the Favorites bar)
    2. Navigate to a nested subfolder and open it
    3. Navigate out of the subfolder to select a top level item
    (my observation is that the opened subfolder stays open)
    4. Press Ctrl-Shift-i (to close the Favorites bar)
    5. Press Ctrl-Shift-i (to reopen it)
    6. What is the state of the previously opened nested subfolder?

    In both cases the state of the nested subfolder is preserved.
    AFAICS the option does nothing for me within any particular

    Ditto for Ctrl-Shift-h preserving the state of my History folders
    (specifically in By Date view)

    Does unchecking it preserve the states from *previous* sessions?
    FWIW not in my case either. E.g. if I wanted folders to remain
    open between sessions I couldn't use it to do that either.

    Also perhaps related to this can you do this successfully?

    regsvr32 ieframe.dll

    Curiously this one does work for me:

    regsvr32 /n /i ieframe.dll

    In IE6 I would have guessed that browseui.dll would
    have been involved but FileMon shows no sign of IE7
    using it.

    <voice actor="Dorothy"> Toto, we're not in Kansas anymore... </voice>

    ; )

    Robert Aldwinckle, Nov 14, 2006

  17. My experience is very different. Nothing you mentioned caused Add to
    Favorites to open with sub-folders expanded.

    Your Ctrl-Shift-I experiment, at the last step (re-opening the list) the
    subfolder was no longer expanded. With of without Close folders checked.
    In fact, selecting a favorite in the main list closed the sub-folder.

    regsvr32 /n /i ieframe.dll succeeded and caused a desktop redraw. regsvr32
    ieframe.dll failed.
    Frank Saunders, MS-MVP OE/WM, Nov 15, 2006
  18. GHL

    GHL Guest

    Hi Frank,

    in my case I can tell you that the IE7 installed did not drop any IE7 icon
    on the desktop !!!
    And that even though I DID have an IE6 icon on the desktop before !!!

    As said I have never had any IE7 beta or pre-release version installed on my
    PC (just as I know that MS's policy of offering betas had been very strange
    in the past: no or very complicated proprietary way of de-installing such
    software again; as I use my PC mainly for working I cannot afford such
    "hoaxes") and I did not download and install the IE7 before it had been
    declared by MS as official release version.

    I also downloaded it from the official MS site not from any third or dubious

    And the scene looks quite the same as in Donald's screenshot here in this

    This all is very strange...

    The localized versions should be in no way different from the English
    original other than the language strings, thus the code should be identical.

    GHL, Nov 15, 2006
  19. GHL

    GHL Guest

    Thanks for your shot, Donald !
    Yes that looks quite as it does when I invoke this function on my PC :-((

    OK, as someone said this is no official MS site - where are the appropriate
    email addresses of the IE7 development team ?

    I cannot find them anywhere.

    I don't think that this is a very good policy.

    I do have however a lot of addresses of editors of PC Magazines.
    I can't help admitting that I am very upset and that I surely will drop a
    report to several chief editors.
    They should try to verify this problem and decide then to bring it to a
    larger audience or not.

    I think MS is just about to shoot down their browser themselves...

    GHL, Nov 15, 2006
  20. GHL

    GHL Guest

    Oh yeah, you are so right !!!

    Upon starting the IE7 for the first time (I have installed Google as my
    landing page on all my browsers on all PCs) I immediately noticed the
    color-blurred characters and - as I well know ClearType from PocketPCs -
    instantly thought of ClearType.

    But I hesitated then, because in my opinion this wouldn't make sense,
    because if something is in plain Arial e.g. and it is mostly up to the
    graphics driver of a PC, how a font is displayed, how on earth should MS
    then try to "improve" the font quality by some software trick (not working
    properly anyway).
    And what would that make sense within an INTERNET BROWSER ???
    (Also: *All* notebook PCs have highly costomized graphics driver especially
    designed for the particular model. Any graphics "improvement" here does more
    bad than good.)

    OK, checking the registry then I found that there indeed was a ClearType
    setting defaulted to on.
    At least this was easily to be found and could be set off.
    But what about the "normal" PC user ?
    He would simply judge that a page browsed with IE7 looks bad compered to the
    same page in Firefox 2 - and switch over to FF !

    It is breathtaking but it almost really seems MS is about to shoot down
    their internet browser and convince us users to change to FF.

    Is it because carneval has started or Stevel Balmer has danced too much on
    the stage or MS has become too rich to take care any more on software
    developments ? <shaking my head>
    GHL, Nov 15, 2006
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