Interesting conversation with MS tech support about SATA hard drives and VISTA

Discussion in 'Windows Vista General Discussion' started by atodzia, Mar 30, 2007.

  1. atodzia

    atodzia Guest

    I was just told by MS Tech support for VISTA that they are told that
    MS does not support disk related problems with VISTA when it is
    installed on SATA hard drives. Just EIDE. I found this strange (they
    did too, I think) because most of the major vendors (HP definitely is)
    are using SATA drives in their VISTA desktops and laptops. It seems
    strange that they would do that and MS will not support disk related
    problems with VISTA.

    The reason this even came up is I installed Vista on a 500 Gb WD SATA
    II hard drive, and it runs fine. In disk manger, I resized the C
    partition to 200 Gb and made a second D partition using the rest of
    the space. I took all the defaults that disk manger gave me for the D
    partition during this process.

    When I do a scan disk of the C drive, either 465Gb or when 200 Gb it
    finishes successfully and boots into Vista. When I do a scan disk of
    the D drive, which VISTA wants to do while rebooting, it finishes
    successfully and then I get a blue screen crash. I then power of the
    computer, VISTA comes up, and everything is fine.

    The end result is that I will live with a 465 Gb C partition for now.
    Has anyone heard of this problem or know why it happens?

    I tried the repartitioning with Acronis Disk Suite and the same thing
    happened. Although, it is interesting, that Acronis will run the scan
    disk of the D partition in VISTA without rebooting, and when it is
    done the computer does NOT crash.
     
    atodzia, Mar 30, 2007
    #1
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  2. atodzia

    Guest Guest

    Who cares - no error message was posted.
     
    Guest, Mar 30, 2007
    #2
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  3. atodzia

    Harry Krause Guest


    My 500-gig Samsung SATA is all in one partition, and contains 465 gigs,
    the same as yours.
     
    Harry Krause, Mar 30, 2007
    #3
  4. atodzia

    jim kirk Guest

    Hello harry, what led you to do a scan disk in the first place?

    Can you empty D again from files and reformat it, but use a full format not
    a quick format?

    Then try doing a scan disk again..

    Also please tell me what kind of machine you have, how old is it?
    Do you use a controller that is on the motherboard or perhaps a sata
    controller that is a pci card?
     
    jim kirk, Mar 30, 2007
    #4
  5. Hello Harry,
    SATA drives in general would be supported in WIndows Vista.
    It's not really the drive in most cases, but the controller driver that the
    question may concern and who supplied that controller driver as to whom the
    issue may reside.
    What is the error message that you are seeing?
    What controller are the SATA drives attached to ( make and model)?
    Thanks,
    Darrell Gorter[MSFT]

    This posting is provided "AS IS" with no warranties, and confers no rights
    --------------------
    |>From: "jim kirk" <[email protected]>
    |>References: <>
    <>
    |>In-Reply-To: <>
    |>Subject: Re: Interesting conversation with MS tech support about SATA
    hard drives and VISTA
    |>Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2007 04:07:01 +0300
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    |>
    |>Hello harry, what led you to do a scan disk in the first place?
    |>
    |>Can you empty D again from files and reformat it, but use a full format
    not
    |>a quick format?
    |>
    |>Then try doing a scan disk again..
    |>
    |>Also please tell me what kind of machine you have, how old is it?
    |>Do you use a controller that is on the motherboard or perhaps a sata
    |>controller that is a pci card?
    |>
    |>
    |>|>> wrote:
    |>>> I was just told by MS Tech support for VISTA that they are told that
    |>>> MS does not support disk related problems with VISTA when it is
    |>>> installed on SATA hard drives. Just EIDE. I found this strange (they
    |>>> did too, I think) because most of the major vendors (HP definitely is)
    |>>> are using SATA drives in their VISTA desktops and laptops. It seems
    |>>> strange that they would do that and MS will not support disk related
    |>>> problems with VISTA.
    |>>>
    |>>> The reason this even came up is I installed Vista on a 500 Gb WD SATA
    |>>> II hard drive, and it runs fine. In disk manger, I resized the C
    |>>> partition to 200 Gb and made a second D partition using the rest of
    |>>> the space. I took all the defaults that disk manger gave me for the D
    |>>> partition during this process.
    |>>>
    |>>> When I do a scan disk of the C drive, either 465Gb or when 200 Gb it
    |>>> finishes successfully and boots into Vista. When I do a scan disk of
    |>>> the D drive, which VISTA wants to do while rebooting, it finishes
    |>>> successfully and then I get a blue screen crash. I then power of the
    |>>> computer, VISTA comes up, and everything is fine.
    |>>>
    |>>> The end result is that I will live with a 465 Gb C partition for now.
    |>>> Has anyone heard of this problem or know why it happens?
    |>>>
    |>>> I tried the repartitioning with Acronis Disk Suite and the same thing
    |>>> happened. Although, it is interesting, that Acronis will run the scan
    |>>> disk of the D partition in VISTA without rebooting, and when it is
    |>>> done the computer does NOT crash.
    |>>
    |>>
    |>> My 500-gig Samsung SATA is all in one partition, and contains 465 gigs,
    |>> the same as yours.
    |>
    |>
     
    Darrell Gorter[MSFT], Mar 30, 2007
    #5

  6. That wasn't his question. He was asking about the blue screen with the
    added partition.

    I don't experience this (gave it a try) so, sadly, I have no suggestions.

    Mic
     
    Michael Palumbo, Mar 30, 2007
    #6
  7. Isn't this the classic situation of marketing GBs and technical GBs?
     
    Hugh Wyn Griffith, Mar 30, 2007
    #7
  8. atodzia

    zoner Guest

    This is Andy (original poster). I'll try to answer Jim and Darrell in
    this one response.

    The Computer is new. I just rebuilt most of it about 4 weeks ago.
    Onboard SATA controller that supports 6x SATA II devices. From
    motherboard manual (ABIT AB9 QUAD GT) IntelICH8R - Intel Matrix
    Storage Tech. There is also 2 external eSATA but I am not using those
    at the moment.

    All hard drives are SATA II.

    I think for now I will live with one C drive until time allows because
    it takes so long to test it and run scan disk on the C and then the D
    partitions. I didn't try a full format so maybe that would do it.
     
    zoner, Mar 30, 2007
    #8
  9. atodzia

    Guest Guest

    No this thread isn't. Because it is about a blue screen crash. And yes the
    difference appears to be due to 10^3 (1000) not quite as much as 2^10
    (1024). But the technical unit for 2^10 is ki, Mi, or Gi. Note kilo is lower
    case so I suppose ki is too.
     
    Guest, Mar 30, 2007
    #9
  10. Sure sounds like it. I got a 750 GB Seagate drive (how it is marketed
    and what it says on the box) while Windows Explorer sees it as a 698
    GB drive with a capacity of 750,153,728,000 bytes. Silly number games
    that actually make sense, sort of, if you do the math. Most people to
    make it easy round down. So while a kilobyte has 1,024 bytes a KB is
    often expressed as just 1K or a 1,000.

    for more:

    http://familyinternet.about.com/cs/computinghelp/l/aa052401a.htm
     
    Adam Albright, Mar 30, 2007
    #10
  11. atodzia

    zoner Guest

    I forgot to answer the question about running scan disk. I was copying
    5 year old cdr's that have photo images on them to the D partition. I
    was using a Samsung SATA DVD/CD writer and at times Windows Explorer
    would just hang and that new circle would keep on spinning but no
    error msg. I think I had to kill it a few times. I ended up copying
    the files on another machine and then copying to this D partition over
    my network. I did the scan disk to make sure nothing was messed up.
    Scan disk didn't find any errors but then I got the blue screen.

    Here are the messages from the blue screen:
    wdf01000.sys
    Page_Fault_In_Nonpaged_Area
    STOP: 0X00000050
    wdf01000.sys - address 80502D26 base at 804CF000, datestamp 4549b23a
     
    zoner, Mar 30, 2007
    #11
  12. I have a major problem with that. Just about any IDE-bound systems
    will be "too old" to be sure of Vistra campatibility, and we've been
    building S-ATA systems for well over a year already... IDE HD's are,
    in the context of new PCs, yesterday's trash.

    Most modern motherboards push S-ATA (4 or 6 sockets) over IDE (only
    one channel, requiring Master+Slave and it's only recently that
    optical drives have moved from IDE to S-ATA. So "just" build a new PC
    with an IDE HD usually means sharing the channel with the optical
    drive, and that really limites your expansion options too.

    Are you sure it wasn't "we don't support Vista installed to S-ATA HDs
    that are connected to add-on S-ATA cards"? That policy would make
    more sense, but built-in S-ATA is prevelent on new motherboards and
    should be supported as native devices by the OS.

    Else you're building a new OS that needs new hardware (spec
    requirements) but won't work with new hardware. That's nuts.
    No. Does not look like an acceptable result... have you checked
    hardware? Check:
    - motherboard capacitors
    - RAM via MemTest86
    - physical HD via HD Tune (www.hdtune.com) - needs admin rights
    I use BING for partitioning, but without installing it.


    Tech Support: The guys who follow the
    'Parade of New Products' with a shovel.
     
    cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user), Mar 30, 2007
    #12
  13. That's a foolish assumption. Today, most DVD burners require a IDE
    channel to run on. In many areas SATA models are hard to come by, yet.
    You don't built a system without a DVD drive do ya? For example I
    visited my local Fry's super store and it is really, with in excess of
    100,000 square feet floor space, they had ZERO SATA DVD drives, but
    about 30 external and interal ones running IDE or USB, even a firewire
    model or two. I fonnd a few on the web, always out of stock.
    They haven't moved in mass yet. That's the point.
    Really? Why? I have my boot drive on master and my DVD burner on
    slave. Works great and is super fast.
    Hint: While build-in to many motherboards the controllers can be buggy
    as hell in that either the MB or Vista or the BIOS has trouble with
    them or any of that combination. Haven't you read my rants on this
    very topic? I got a state of the art very expensive Gigabyte GA965PDQ6
    board that "earned" Vista certification with one IDE channel and 8
    SATA slots and even with the latest BIOS upgrade, plus a upgrade of
    the chipset, plus the latest Intel controller upgrade for the South
    Bridge ICH8R chip that controls 6 of the Sata drive channels none of
    my many SATA drives are seen correctly by Vista no matter what I do in
    BIOS and they aren't either if plugged into the second Gigabyte
    onboard controller. My guess is my revision 1 board simply can't
    handle it correctly and/or something goofy with Vista.

    While I could get some third party SATA controller card, again the
    same story. NONE say they come with Vista drivers, except I think it
    was a Promise card, and again, that was out of stock and not worth the
    $200+ just to replace was is hardwired into the MB. I'm still fuming
    over the fact the board "passed" Vista certification and claims to
    fully support SATA. IT DOES NOT! Not under Vista, and marginally under
    XP.

    WAY TOO MANY people here jump to the conclusion that hey it works for
    me, so if it don't work for you, then you must be nuts. There simply
    are too many variables for everything to have shaken out yet. Also
    I've seen my same problem reported over and over again in various
    forums all up and down the web. So before some guy says I must have it
    misconfigured, no, I do not.
     
    Adam Albright, Mar 30, 2007
    #13
  14. I think you mis-read me; I rather carefully said "IDE HD's are, in the
    context of new PCs, yesterday's trash" rather than "IDE drives are, in
    the context of new PCs, yesterday's trash" for that reason ;-)

    In fact, being obliged to consume the sole IDE interface for the
    optical drive is a good reason to avoid IDE HDs, as ithe IDE HD would
    have to share the same channel. With multiple optical and hard
    drives, this becomes even more of a no-no.

    So, we're saying the same thing, really.

    What annoys me MASSIVELY is that even new S-ATA optical drives are
    still shipping with a Nero Express 6 that will not install on Vista,
    and there's NOTHING on either Nero's site (which just pretends OEM
    Nero doesn't exist) nor Samsung's site (which just offers and even
    older version of Nero Express 6 as "update") help.
    With an IDE HD as Master and IDE DVD writer as Slave, you have no way
    to attach any additional IDE devices, such as an IDE HD that you wish
    to recover data from, for example. Removing the DVD doesn't help if
    your recovery software boots off CDR, and removing the main HD doesn't
    help if you intended to use that as the recovery destination.

    There may also be performance issues when the source and destination
    drives are on the same channel, when burning optical disks.
    I've read several threads where the motherboard chipset lacks native
    S-ATA and an additional chipset is added for this, or where there are
    both native and added S-ATA controllers on the same motherboard.

    That's an internalization of the problems one has of added S-ATA
    cards. I was thinking of motherboard chipsets that natively support
    S-ATA; MS really have no excuse not to support that.
    That's Intel P965 chipset, which should be similar mileage to the G965
    chipset mobos I've been using for my Vista32 PC builds.

    I've had no trouble using S-ATA HD with those. For my reference
    build, I downloaded Vista drivers from Intel and applied those, and
    since then I've used ImageX from WinPE 2.0 for subsequent builds.

    OTOH, 8 x S-ATA sounds like there may be another controller in there
    somewhere (though the details on your mobo I read didn't mention
    this). I say that, because none of the G965 motherboards I've used -
    namely Whitchester with RAID (6 x S-ATA) nor Roger City without RAID
    (4 x S-ATA) have 8 S-ATA sockets.
    I'd be fuming too! What do Gigabyte say about this? Have you tried a
    swap-out, in case it's a duff board?
    Sure, that's always an issue.

    FWIW, the two Intel motherboards I mentioned, plus the 946G chipset
    Islington, have worked fine with Vista32 RTM Home Basic and Intel's
    drivers (the ones on the bundled CD being too old for Vista).

    As it's not working for you as it does for me, my reaction is not
    "you're wrong" but "what is it that differs betwen what you use and
    do, and what I use and do, that accounts for our different mileage?"
    The ones I've seen have been about additional S-ATA controllers (i.e.
    other than the native chipset support) - and thar be dragons...


    Tech Support: The guys who follow the
    'Parade of New Products' with a shovel.
     
    cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user), Mar 30, 2007
    #14
  15. Although the ratio of his figures works out as 1.075 ..... :1

    But then there's hidden partitions beloved of system builders.....
     
    Hugh Wyn Griffith, Mar 30, 2007
    #15
  16. Yep, six on the South Bridge ICH8R and the other two on a Gigabyte
    controller chip which also does double duty supporting the IDE
    channel, to keep things straight they color code the connectors orange
    and purple.
    Still waiting for a reply to my email, still nothing back in about 3
    weeks. Thanks for reminding me, only trouble is it was through a web
    based server that I wrote the email, I got to remember where or even
    if I copied the message to my drive somewhere.
    I asked at Fry's where I bought the board and well, that was a waste
    of time. I was hoping they would swap boards and maybe I'd get a later
    revision of the board which I think may be the problem, but they
    didn't have any more in stock. Overall it is a nice board, the drives
    work set up as IDE from the SATA channels, just that they are a good
    deal slower that way. :-(
     
    Adam Albright, Mar 30, 2007
    #16
  17. Ah, there you go; that fits the issues I've seen perfectly!

    Does it make a difference whether you use the built-in S-ATA or the
    additional 2 S-ATA? You may have to do a completely clean build to
    test these in ways that don't complicate each other.
    I was pleasently surprised when Jetway responded to my email when
    their 875P chipset super-board (also with an added S-ATA/RAID/IDE,
    this time from Promise) blew up on XP SP2 due to this...

    http://cquirke.mvps.org/sp2intel.htm

    ....which was written right in the middle of that crisis. They rev'd
    their BIOS to fix the issue a few days later.
    I'd try and negotiate a swap for a different board, e.g. a Whitchester
    (tho you'd lose 2 x S-ATA, it's still RAIDable). Let them margin up
    on a more expensive board if it sweetens the deal for them, but they
    may have a cut-off time for such swaps, so do it soon.

    If you can get to their tech back-end, that may help, especially if
    you document everything well, and concicely, as I think you probably
    will. St some point, some employee has to take the decision to help
    you. which also means having to defend that decision to management;
    your documentation can make it easier for them to do that.
    Hmm. Not sure where the "live with it" / "swap it" break-even may be.


    "For every complex question, there's a simple
    answer - and it's wrong." H.L. Mencken
     
    cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user), Mar 31, 2007
    #17
  18. atodzia

    Frank Guest

    After reading this I wonder what I shall do as I have just ordered a new
    computer with a Gigabyte GA 965-DS3 Mobo and 2 WD 8 M Sata hard disk, any
    advise would be appreciated
     
    Frank, Mar 31, 2007
    #18
  19. If it comes with Vista installed, you should be OK, in that the
    builder must have sorted most of the problems mentioned on this.

    If you planned on doing your own Vista setup (especially if the system
    arrives with XP installed), then I'd be Very Careful.

    I'd be particularly careful about swapping the HD to other S-ATA
    connectors (Vista's product activation may stab you in the back, as it
    seems more trigger-happy than XP) and especially from one of the
    "native" S-ATA to one of the "value-added" S-ATA.

    The problem is that the motherboard we've been discussing, has both
    the 965 chipset's native S-ATA, plus extra S-ATA and IDE from an
    additional 3rd-party chipset that Gigabyte added to the board.
     
    cquirke (MVP Windows shell/user), Mar 31, 2007
    #19
  20. atodzia

    Puffnstuff Guest

    One bit I'd like to add if you've got a mix of ide and sata drives and plan
    to install windws power down and disconnect all hd's except for the one you
    want to install windows to. If you have a mix of ide and sata drives hooked
    up when you install windows it will place system files onto the ide drive
    regardless if it's the drive windows is going on to or not. This will save
    you a lot of heartache later on down the road otherwise when you remove or
    disconnect the ide and try to boot it will not find the ntlr file and halt.
     
    Puffnstuff, Apr 20, 2007
    #20
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