Middle Finger Salute

Discussion in 'Windows Update' started by Middle Finger, Nov 11, 2009.

  1. <SNIPPED>
    http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.windowsupdate/browse_frm/thread/753a814d91d89d82/
    <above is link to entire conversation>


    Maybe the problem is assuming due-diligence. If you are going to be using
    some tool to accomplish some task - you should not *assume* it will be setup
    in such a way that is optimal for your needs.

    Also - if you assume the OP knew *how* to configure automatic updates such
    as when you said, "He chose it because Microsoft told him it was the best
    thing to do", then you would think the OP would be wise enough to attempt to
    understand how that works. It's the OPs computer, the OP should know how
    their computer will be used and how best to use their computer and configure
    it for their needs. That *will* take effort - and if they are unwilling to
    put forth the effort to understand why someone told them to set something
    some way - then they have assumed the risks.

    The whole point is still, "If one is unwilling to put in effort to ensure
    their settings/way of doing things is the best/best for them - then they
    have essentially decided to live with the consequences. If they didn't know
    there were other options (assuming they did put forth effort to look - or
    even if they didn't and just believe ignorance is a valid excuse) then the
    first time it happens should be a learning experience and they should then
    learn or want to learn ways to keep it from happening in the future."

    And since you said something similar - I assume you'd agree. ;-)

    " I tell my users that anything they leave on the screen overnight that
    isn't saved is going to get lost, but they sometimes need to experience the
    consequences of not saving more than once."

    It's not expecting everyone to be an 'expert' - but to understand their own
    needs/wants and figure out what they need to do to make sure those
    needs/wants are met.
     
    Shenan Stanley, Nov 11, 2009
    #21
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  2. Fact this is not new behavior.
    Fact if you want to control patches, go into the control panel, Windwos
    Update, choose download but do not install.
    Fact Apple (which arguably has the potential to be a greater monopoly
    than Microsoft) also reboots.

    Make the choice to turn off automatic updates and control your own
    patching. It's that simple.

    Microsoft cares about their Enterprise customers that do pay.
     
    Susan Bradley, Nov 11, 2009
    #22
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  3. <SNIPPED>
    http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.windowsupdate/browse_frm/thread/753a814d91d89d82/
    <above is link to entire conversation>



    "Appropriate criticism"? Really?

    So if someone has a problem with something you do - it is 'appropriate' to
    come up to you in public, throw their middle finger up in your face and say,
    "I went to the restroom last night I left my wallet on the bar next to you
    (didn't say anything to you though) and you decided to go dance while I was
    away and my wallet was stolen because you did not watch it."

    Or - would you be 'set to' automatic protection of your friends wallet
    (assuming you even noticed it) and thus - you should take the responsibility
    for your friends careless actions? ;-)

    Comparison key:
    wallet = whatever work they lost
    restroom trip = 30 minute walk away

    Better options:
    - Take the wallet with them (save).
    - Ask you to watch it (configure automatic updates).

    I have given plenty of useful information that would help the OP learn from
    their mistake - but - it is their mistake. What they now do with the
    multitude of suggestions I and others have given is up to them.

    I cannot get the genie (two hours of work) back in the bottle (restored
    work.) The milk is spilled - clean it up and move on. All one can do now
    is give advice on how to do things better in the future.

    Again - no questions were even asked as this was not a query and not a
    criticism post; just an angry person venting their frustration. You may
    have turned it into a criticism post by suggesting that perhaps the update
    system could be done differently - but the OP, they did/have not presented a
    criticism - just angry words stating what happened to them and whom they
    place the blame on. ;-)
     
    Shenan Stanley, Nov 11, 2009
    #23
  4. Middle Finger

    Michael Guest

    I totally agree with you. I mean what would the world be like if everyone
    was permitted to buy a car without having ever driven before? I guess in
    your little dank corner of the universe, that would be just fine. The same
    rules should apply to computer users. A computer IQ test should be given to
    all prospective buyers. As with everything else, if an ignorant moron could
    purchase a firearm, why can't an intelligence challenged person buy a
    computer, then complain "the thing don't do nothing when I press da button"
    and expect help when he never plugged it in? Shit-stains like you don't
    help the situation. You must be a computer salesmen or a cubicle monkey
    working for one of the Big Box stores.



    --


    "Don't pick a fight with an old man.
    If he is too old to fight, he'll just kill you."
     
    Michael, Nov 11, 2009
    #24
  5. You're still missing the point: The OP is a /user/, not an expert, and no
    one should expect him to be an expert. Why should average users be expected
    to know why to configure Automatic Updates a certain way? Yes, this user
    has learned a valuable lesson: whenever possible, save your work. But, as
    you already noted, it's not always possible to save your work. If it wasn't
    possible for him to save his work for one reason or another, then he's
    learned nothing because there is nothing for him to learn except that it
    might not be a good idea to follow Microsoft's recommendations.

    The automatic restart feature, when coupled with Microsoft's recommendation
    to use it, is a design flaw.
     
    David Dickinson, Nov 11, 2009
    #25
  6. Maybe you've forgotten how XP works when you start up an OEM machine for the
    very first time: It presents a screen that recommends turning on Automatic
    updates before the desktop is displayed.

    You are still requiring that users know more about their computers and
    operating systems than can be reasonably expected. There are literally
    thousands upon thousands of settings in Windows, and I'll bet that not even
    you understand them all. And please don't tell me that you've never had a
    complaint about Windows. If you want to try to make that case, I'll call
    you a liar right now.

    The original poster, a typical user, has a legitimate complaint. Maybe he
    could have mitigate the problem /if he had possessed more knowledge/, but we
    must examine if that is a reasonable requirement. Given Microsoft's
    recommendation, it clearly is not.
     
    David Dickinson, Nov 11, 2009
    #26
  7. <SNIPPED>
    http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.windowsupdate/browse_frm/thread/753a814d91d89d82/
    <above is link to entire conversation>


    You did not answer the question - you really thought their post was an
    "appropriate criticism"?

    My point was spelled out (albeit elsewhere in this conversation - but to
    you.)

    "It's not expecting everyone to be an 'expert' - but to understand their own
    needs/wants and figure out what they need to do to make sure those
    needs/wants are met."

    If the OP learned that sometimes it is not okay to follow general
    recommendations (especially if you do not understand the possible
    consequences of them) - that's something. Ignorance is not an excuse.

    Just because you believe you should trust some entity doesn't mean you
    shouldn't verify that their *general* recommendation is the right one for
    you in your *specific* situation. That's not asking for any expert
    knowledge - just common sense.

    Generally - you should take the stairs or elevator to get up/down inside a
    building with multiple floors. When there's a fire - your situation
    changes - so should your following of any general recommendation
    recommendation.

    Too extreme?

    Generally - you should lock the doors to your home to protect the contents.
    If you are holding an open-house to try and sell it - that might be
    counter-productive.

    Some places it is okay to park your car on the side of the road, except
    during special events. Those special events are a specific situation which
    changes the general recommendation.

    The general recommendation may have to be ignored in specific situations.
    If the user had a specific need - only they knew this and only they could be
    responsible for their actions/preparation around it.

    Is it a flaw? *shrug* I believe it may be - if you think people are sheep.

    I cannot help but think of the weight-loss commercials - should everything
    have Disclaimers?

    "Your results may vary"
    "These results may not be typical"
    "The coffee you got fresh may be hot - be careful"

    --
    Shenan Stanley
    MS-MVP
    --
    How To Ask Questions The Smart Way
    http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html
     
    Shenan Stanley, Nov 11, 2009
    #27
  8. <SNIPPED>
    http://groups.google.com/group/microsoft.public.windowsupdate/browse_frm/thread/753a814d91d89d82/
    <above is link to entire conversation>


    The OP did not complain - he got angry and shot the finger.

    Maybe to you that is complaining - to me that is not.

    The OP did not ask a question, nothing to answer. The OP did not state how
    things could be made better - so it was not a suggestion. There was no "It
    would be better if..." - so it was not an appropriate criticism. It was an
    angry reaction by a frustrated person.

    Typical user or not - if the OP wants to use something and they do not learn
    how to use it around their specific needs - that is *their* fault. Period.
    They don't need to be an expert at all Windows settings - they just need to
    figure out what might affect them while they are using it for whatever they
    want to do.

    Windows sometimes sucks - but usually it is a misunderstanding on the user's
    part and after they get it explained - it seldom repeats itself. I know you
    have the same experience given your comments already.

    What Microsoft recommends, what you recommend, what I recommend - whatever -
    should not be the final say in what the OP needs. Only the OP knows what
    they will be doing - and obviously they were ignorant to the settings that
    would be suited to their needs - but that doesn't exclude them from being
    able to find out what they might should do given what they are wanting to
    do/how they plan on using the computer.

    They could have/can ask that question...
    "I will be using my computer to run something that will need to run
    continuously for many hours - and I won't be around all the time. What can
    I do to make sure I don't get logged off, rebooted, lose power without
    warning, etc. I just really need this process to complete." and then take
    those suggestions, research and implement the ones that they can/see will
    work for them.

    Yes - everything is *in the past* - because the OP just flipped the bird,
    made a snide comment and ran out of the room. Cannot teach someone who is
    not here. ;-)
     
    Shenan Stanley, Nov 11, 2009
    #28
  9. Middle Finger

    TaurArian Guest

    You are well aware that the default settings in AU would cause the computer
    to reboot therefore it's your own fault for not backing up your work prior to
    walking away from your computer.

    It is common practice to back up your work as you go on the assumption tha
    something could always go wrong, like electricity blackout, glitch in the
    software you're using etc. It only takes a few seconds to save the current
    project you're working on, but could take many hours to redo the same. Your
    choice.

    This is not your first update month and it won't be your last update month.
    Suggest you look at resetting your WU settings and getting in the habit of
    backing up your work as you go. This will avoid the problem next cycle of
    updates.

    K
     
    TaurArian, Nov 11, 2009
    #29
  10. Shenan Stanley said:
    "The OP did not complain - he got angry and shot the finger."

    Okay, now you're abusing both semantics and logic, whereas before you were
    simply avoiding logic. If honesty is not to be a part of this conversation,
    then I prefer to let it end.
     
    David Dickinson, Nov 11, 2009
    #30
  11. Honesty is a part of it... quote it as written, "The OP did not complain -
    he got angry and shot the finger. Maybe to you that is complaining - to me
    that is not." I was honest about that - what else you want? I stated it
    was my opinion that was not a complaint.

    I guess walking up andf punching someone in the face *coud be* considered a
    complaint. I woudn't consider it an appropriate one.

    So I ask *again* - and you can be honest and answer the question if you
    like...

    "Appropriate criticism"? Really?

    So if someone has a problem with something you do - it is 'appropriate' to
    come up to you in public, throw their middle finger up in your face and say,
    "I went to the restroom last night I left my wallet on the bar next to you
    (didn't say anything to you though) and you decided to go dance while I was
    away and my wallet was stolen because you did not watch it."

    Or - would you be 'set to' automatic protection of your friends wallet
    (assuming you even noticed it) and thus - you should take the responsibility
    for your friends careless actions? ;-)

    Comparison key:
    wallet = whatever work they lost
    restroom trip = 30 minute walk away

    Better options:
    - Take the wallet with them (save).
    - Ask you to watch it (configure automatic updates).

    I have given plenty of useful information that would help the OP learn from
    their mistake - but - it is their mistake. What they now do with the
    multitude of suggestions I and others have given is up to them.

    I cannot get the genie (two hours of work) back in the bottle (restored
    work.) The milk is spilled - clean it up and move on. All one can do now
    is give advice on how to do things better in the future.
     
    Shenan Stanley, Nov 11, 2009
    #31
  12. PA Bear [MS MVP], Nov 12, 2009
    #32
  13. PA Bear [MS MVP], Nov 12, 2009
    #33
  14. Maybe it isn't, but it's the excuse that millions of users will use, and
    there's not a damned thing that we professionals can do to change that
    because it's a reasonable excuse. We tell them that computers can make
    their lives easier or more enjoyable or more productive, but then we foist
    on them steep but unnecessary learning requirements. The user's job should
    not be and can not be to become a computer expert. That's our job.
    Instead, we have to design smarter operating systems and applications,
    because to not do so would be irresponsible on our part. We CAN design
    smarter operating systems. We CAN allow users to have shallow learning
    requirements. But what we cannot do is change the world. We can change our
    products to meet the world's needs, and that is the true issue here.

    "We are at the very beginning of time for the human race. It is not
    unreasonable that we grapple with problems. But there are tens of thousands
    of years in the future. Our responsibility is to do what we can, learn what
    we can, improve the solutions, and pass them on." - Richard Feynman

    "I have no responsibility for anything but the making of money." -Steve
    Ballmer

    Do not count me as a fan of Ballmer. I actually feel a responsibility to my
    clients.
     
    David Dickinson, Nov 12, 2009
    #34
  15. You're making an unreasonable and unjustified assumption for which you have
    no evidence. (Well, actually, you're making /two/ unreasonable and
    unwarranted assumptions for which you have no evidence, but I'm willing to
    bet that you can't figure out what either of them are.)
     
    David Dickinson, Nov 12, 2009
    #35
  16. Middle Finger

    TaurArian Guest

    Is it unreasonable and unjustified to assume that a user would have enough
    sense to backup their important data and/or save their work if it was that
    important.

    Is it unreasonble and unjustified to state that if rebooting at an
    inappropriate time after updates was a problem for the user, then why didn't
    the user adjust the AU settings? This would have been an ongoing problem
    every month for the user therefore if it was an annoyance, would not the user
    learn or ask how to adjust such settings.

    You're right, I made an assumption of common sense.

    End conversation.
     
    TaurArian, Nov 12, 2009
    #36
  17. You're assuming that a certain situation existed at the time of the
    incident. However, we don't know what project the user was working on. We
    don't know what other tasks the computer was performing at the time of the
    reboot. We don't know if the user was aware that he could adjust the
    automatic update settings or if he understood that it might be necessary.
    We don't know anything at all, except that we are demanding that an inexpert
    user understand concepts that seem elementary to us but that are advanced
    topics to 99.999% of the people in the world.

    Remember that number: 99.999%. You have to design for them, the people who
    will use computers but who don't know anything about them. If you don't
    want them to be very unhappy with what you sell, then you'd better keep
    their needs in mind. Instead of setting specifications for the kind of
    users that you want, create better specifications for the computers that you
    want to sell them.

    (See? I told you that you were making unreasonable assumptions.)
     
    David Dickinson, Nov 12, 2009
    #37
  18. Middle Finger

    TaurArian Guest

    If you buy a car, does that mean you don't have to learn how to drive it?
     
    TaurArian, Nov 12, 2009
    #38
  19. Puleeze.

    We don't even know how well the user can type. But obviously he had the
    skills necessary to begin the project he was working on. Moreover, we
    shouldn't expect him to know how to configure his computer anymore than we
    expect him to know how to change the air filter on their cars.

    QUIT BLAMING THE USER when a competent automatic updates design -- and an
    application that autosaves -- would solve the problem.

    And please quit grasping at straws. That car analogy is not only tiresomely
    invalid, but it's too easy to use against you. Besides, straw-grasping not
    a behavior that we normally associate with intelligence or honesty.
     
    David Dickinson, Nov 12, 2009
    #39
  20. Middle Finger

    TaurArian Guest

    I didn't say a person needed to learn the mechanics of a motor vehicle, just
    the normal basic stuff like how to adjust seats, use indicators etc. How to
    drive that particular motor vehicle. Each motor vehicle is different.

    Adjusting the AU settings is no more difficult than adjusting the seat in
    your motor vehicle to suit you needs.
    Saving your work as you work is no more difficult than indicating changing
    lanes.

    If you value your work, you save it. If you know AU is going to reboot each
    month, then you change settings. If you don't know how, you ask.

    If all else fails RTFM.

    End of story, end of thread.

    Good night David.


    David Dickinson wrote:
    :: Puleeze.
    ::
    :: We don't even know how well the user can type. But obviously he had
    :: the skills necessary to begin the project he was working on.
    :: Moreover, we shouldn't expect him to know how to configure his
    :: computer anymore than we expect him to know how to change the air
    :: filter on their cars.
    ::
    :: QUIT BLAMING THE USER when a competent automatic updates design --
    :: and an application that autosaves -- would solve the problem.
    ::
    :: And please quit grasping at straws. That car analogy is not only
    :: tiresomely invalid, but it's too easy to use against you. Besides,
    :: straw-grasping not a behavior that we normally associate with
    :: intelligence or honesty.
    ::
    ::
     
    TaurArian, Nov 12, 2009
    #40
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