Middle Finger Salute

Discussion in 'Windows Update' started by Middle Finger, Nov 11, 2009.

  1. David Dickinson wrote [in two separate posts]:
    Agreed! I've *never* understood this decision.

    On my new Windows 7 install I noticed that not only were you encouraged to allow
    it to set automatic updating as the default, but if you don't you get a warning
    message from the taskbar - and the only way to turn this off is to configure the
    security centre (or whatever it's called) to not monitor Windows Update *at
    all*. Not good usability.

    On the other hand ...
    Unfortunately, history suggests that smarter operating systems don't sell.
    ... or Microsoft.

    Harry Johnston [MVP], Nov 12, 2009
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  2. Middle Finger

    M Guest

    You deserve Windows then, if all you can come up with is this.

    M, Nov 13, 2009
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  3. ....
    Unfortunately, there isn't time to learn everything that we might like to
    know. The last person who could possess all of human knowledge was Benjamin
    Franklin. Nowadays, we can only hope to possess a small fraction of
    everything there is to know. If everybody tried to learn how to configure
    automatic updates, millions of man-hours would be wasted because it simply
    is not necessary -- and /should not/ be necessary -- for everyone (or for
    even a sizeable fraction of everyone) to know how to do it.
    I'm describing what it is /possible/ for people to know. You simply aren't
    looking at the big picture.
    You are saying that users in general need to know how to configure automatic
    updates. If that is true, then we are not nearly as advanced in our
    computer technology as we think we are.

    Either that, or we're just lazy.

    I tend to think that laziness is our biggest problem. Even a patch for XP
    which prevented the problem that the original poster experienced is not that
    big a deal, especially when compared to the fact that an operating system
    "feature" actually causes data loss.

    Fortunately, it is NOT true that general users must be required to learn to
    configure such details of their operating systems. What is true is that
    this design flaw should be fixed, and it can be fixed if the powers that be
    have the will to do it.
    David Dickinson, Nov 13, 2009
  4. Hopefully, that is simply a marketing problem. Linux has never been
    marketed sufficiently, and Apple, following IBM's route of attempting to
    have complete control over the world, simply can't sell that kind of
    product. People accepted PCs because it's an open hardware standard that
    can run lots of different operating systems. Microsoft simply offered the
    best /marketed/ operating system for that platform. And, at the time
    Windows 3.0 came out, it was the best GUI for that platform. After that,
    nobody else had a chance.
    I don't think it's Microsoft, Inc., that we have to worry about. It's the
    handful of people who run it who are the problem. Attitudes such as
    Ballmer's "I have no responsibility for anything but the making of money"
    show clearly the danger of relying them. Without a conscience at the top,
    the corporation ends up producing disasters like Vista, or hobbled, top-down
    designs like Vista SP3 (often known as "Windows 7").

    (See my list of 30 Windows 7 Annoyances here:
    http://windows7forums.com/windows-7-discussion/25365-my-list-30-windows-7-annoyances.html )

    David Dickinson, Nov 13, 2009
  5. How about "any computer with which humans interact". Or has this discussion
    gotten too far above your head?
    David Dickinson, Nov 13, 2009
  6. I am saying they _could_ learn - or they could live in ignorance. I'm
    allowing them to choose. They can send in suggestions and try to make a
    change in the update system - good - go for it. Or they could learn to
    click the mouse a few extra times or import a registry file or something.
    I'm not forcing anything on anyone. I'm just saying they *COULD* learn.

    You kept throwing out that I believed they should become an expert (never
    said that, never even implied it) - I don't think configuing Windows Updates
    will make anyone much of an expert on anything. No more than learning to
    automate the save process in MS Word/MS Excel/MS Powerpoint/OpenOffice
    applications/WordPerfect/etc would make them an expert in that program - but
    might save them just as much trouble as this little configuration change
    does. Should that setting be automatically set too? Maybe - but I say
    leave that to the person while you might say that should be the default.

    There is no one way to do anything, no best way for everyone. What you may
    think *is* the way things should be might not be the best way for someone
    else. What you may like, others may not. What may thrill you may scare
    someone else. What you may be unwilling to do, others may do without a
    second thought.

    You don't get everything you want in this life - so some things you either
    learn to do yourself (even if it is 'simple' or 'difficult' or done by
    changing completely to something else) or you learn to live with what will
    happen if you don't do it.

    Maybe it will change where it won't be automatic - then I think there will
    be people complaining that their system never seems to be updated and
    because of that they got infested with something. Or that it notified them
    and they are tired of that. Or that it didn't play a sound letting them
    know when they needed to update. Or that it should have been in big red
    letters. Or that it should have cut off Internet access until they decided
    to allow it to patch itself (or that it shouldn't have cut off Internet
    access until it was allowed to patch itself.) Or that it shouldn't need
    updates at all. (Actually - I bet there are already people who have said
    something similar to all of those. hah) There will almost always be two
    sides to everything (or more.) If we all agreed - there would be one OS,
    one computer system, it would work perfectly and life would be
    extraordinarily... ordinary. *grin*

    Preventing Data Loss is not the main function of an OS for many people -
    allowing them to use a computer as a means-to-an-end is the purpose for many
    people, IMHO. That's why all OSes have gotten more bloated over time with
    pictures and the use of a mouse with multiple buttons and 2+ different ways
    to do almost anything on your 24+" monitor with your printer/scanner/fax
    attached and the ability to control some things with guestures and other
    things by voice commands and you can even use peddles for some things *and*
    the command line still sitting there waiting to be used. It may be the
    system administrator's job in an enterprise environment to ensure data is
    not lost - but for the standard home user - their thought process is likely
    usually much simpler... "How can this box make this process
    easier/better/faster for me?" Each person defines what the
    computer/OS/applications that run on it means to them.

    Neither of us can make the decision on what is best for everyone who might
    use a computer with Windows installed on it... That would be - as I keep
    saying - the choice of the end-user.

    And it is my right to think that those who choose not to learn something are
    being lazy and thus, remaining ignorant of something... *smile* It is your
    right to think that Microsoft should change the setting so that the choice
    changes, they would then have to turn it on full automatic ... Would those
    that want to change the new default setting be ignorant if they did not
    bother to learn how to change it?

    Although when I last installed - it was a choice during the first boot -
    even on the first boot of a pre-installed OEM computer - whether to turn on
    the fully automatic updates or not - a question. Yes - it
    suggested/recommended - but I have been asked my opinion by other people
    more than once when people got a new computer what they should answer there.
    I usually tell them to change the settings to Notify but don't
    download/install. Just like I think you would want the default to be and
    Microsoft to recommend. However - sometimes when I explain the options and
    even throw in, "Now it can reboot anytime it wants if you choose the fully
    automatic option", some people say, "Yeah - but at least I know it is
    patched and probably more secure than it would be without that."


    This has become ridiculous.

    You like chocolate or vanilla more?
    Dark or light beer?
    Red or white wine?
    Hot or cold weather?

    Same opinion-like questions, different subjects. ;-)

    I thank you for the discussion. I did get to see things from another side -
    and that's what I like to do - learn, test my opinions, see if they hold up
    for me. Otherwise - the world is like I mentioned above... Extraordinarily
    Ordinary... It was enjoyable - but I have other things to go about, other
    questions to answer (ones with actual answers in some cases even. *grin*)
    Shenan Stanley, Nov 13, 2009
  7. Wow - Okay - I gave you credit in my mind for having an actual discussion.
    I even thanked you elsewhere in this conversation for the discussion. Yet -
    like many people who decide they can no longer 'discuss' something or if
    they just tire of it - instead of saying, "I'm done" - you just get snotty
    and jump in for a personal attack. They stop trying to understand the other
    sides point of view and decide that if they cannot prove their side, then
    they will end it anyway they can.


    To explain my question further (to Stefan) - how can you precisely define a
    single "normal operation" for a computer or its user?

    So the C&C machine operators use the computer in the same way as the person
    who puts events on a calendar for their boss or the web page designer or the
    photographer or the people who put together statistics for undergraduate
    enrollment at a college or the 3d-video animator or the gamer or the game
    creators or the graphic artist or the people studying weather patterns or
    the architects or the engineers or the musicians...? How about those who
    run computer labs that shoud be kept updated but available for users almost
    24 hours a day/7 days a week? Those who manage kiosks in public areas for
    web surfing?

    If the word "never" is used (as it was) - then surely there is an "always"
    for the "normal operation" that defines the 'never' mentioned...
    Shenan Stanley, Nov 13, 2009
  8. You're repeating yourself and, what's worse, you're not following your ideas
    to their logical conclusions, so it looks like I'll have to repeat myself
    again, too, although this will be the last time: If someone took the time
    to study the details about how to configure their computer and to learn
    enough to understand why they would need to ignore Microsoft's
    recommendation and to apply a custom configuration then they would spend
    many hours doing so. Therefore, it is NOT possible for all users -- or even
    a large number of them -- to learn what you would require them to learn.
    You have to think about the costs and consequences of your ideas, and you
    have failed to do that. Such short-sighted thinking in the design of
    Windows' automatic update mechanism is what caused this user's data loss.
    David Dickinson, Nov 13, 2009
  9. *sigh*

    You only quote part of what I say. Convenient for your point.

    Repeating is what one does when they believe they have a valid point. It's
    unlikely to change if there is no reason to change it.

    However, some things are not worth it - arguing over opinions is one of
    them. That's al this is - so - enjoy your opinion/life, I'll enjoy mine and
    others may enjoy theirs without this continuing. I will no longer respond
    to your posts in this conversation.

    I thank you again (as I did before you snipped it out) for your point of
    view and your discussion in the matter.

    Anyone interested?


    There's the entire conversation...
    Shenan Stanley, Nov 13, 2009
  10. It's been an interesting discussion. You are bot right up to a point.

    Most of us users, and I am one with no special training in OS have learned
    the hard way. We all make mistakes but some of us learn not to make the same
    mistake twice.

    Probably Middle finger will have learned not to repeat his error and adjust
    his thinking. It does no good to call any of us stupid (although no one said
    it but some here implied it.)

    So we learn and adjust.

    As I said it was a nice discussion and no one blew his/her cool.

    Best regards to you all,

    Bullwinkle's news, Nov 13, 2009
  11. You're again assuming that no one learns anything from their mistakes.
    You spend all your time in this thread saying that almost all users/ops are

    That's just not true.


    Bullwinkle's news, Nov 13, 2009
  12. Middle Finger

    Alias Guest

    To configure Auto Updates isn't exactly rocket science and even you
    could figure it out for yourself if you tried.

    Alias, Nov 13, 2009
  13. You also dont want to have your PC reboot without notice!
    Tertium datur: with the given registry settings updates are installed
    during shutdown.
    I did not.
    Please do not advocate to turn off automatic updates... People tend to
    forget to patch manually then.

    Stefan Kanthak, Nov 13, 2009
  14. Running. Doing the tasks it was setup/bought for.
    A reboot is a disruption of normal operation. And vice versa.
    C&C machines and so forth have the computer as an embedded component.
    The engineers who integrate these computers into the C&C machine etc.
    have to deal with the proper configuration of the OS and tell the
    customer who uses these machines how to maintain the embedded computer.
    You clearly dont want to have Windows reboot at 03:00 AM when the C&C
    machine does its night shift.
    All these (the vast majority) use their computer interactive, so a sudden
    reboot does harm!
    Why should these computers reboot at 03:00 AM and interrupt their users?
    The three cases you picked are a minority, and the people who administer
    these systems need to have the skills to setup computers for their resp.
    tasks. Properly.
    "Normal operation" is "how the typical end-user with an out-of-box setup
    will use it". AFAIK the majority of Windows systems is used at home, by
    Joe Average and Jane Doe.

    Stefan Kanthak, Nov 13, 2009
  15. You have completely misread what I said. I have not even implied that users
    are idiots, and I would not do that. What I have said is that it is
    unreasonable to expect users to know that they should not follow Microsoft's
    recommendation to allow automatic updates. In what way is that calling them

    It would be like a brain surgeon calling me an idiot because I don't know
    how to remove a brain tumor from someone's skull. I don't have to know how
    to do that. I don't want to spend the time it would take to learn how to do
    that. I would rather rely on an expert to do it because I've found a
    completely different field in which I want to be an expert, and I want
    people to rely on me for my expertise in that field. I don't consider them
    idiots for doing so. I consider them smart.

    A properly designed operating system doesn't require you to learn "the hard
    way". It protects your data, is easy for you to use, and tells you when you
    need expert help. (After that, if you fail to heed the warning, that's on

    You are wrong that I consider users to be idiots. They simply know things
    that I don't know, as I know things that they don't know, and they use
    their computers to accomplish their tasks, which is as it should be. My job
    is to make sure that they can do their jobs, which I don't know how to do.

    David Dickinson, Nov 15, 2009
  16. For those who have contributed to this discussion and have decided
    what would/would not be the best setting for everyone, you may want
    to review this conversation I just came across...

    And to make sure you don't miss any of this conversation:

    As I said elsewhere - there is no single proper/covers everyone answer.
    Shenan Stanley, Nov 16, 2009
  17. So sayeth the person who is wrong.
    David Dickinson, Nov 16, 2009
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