problem persists - unreliable folder sync with DeltaSync and @live adresses - can IMAP be an alterna

WLM running on Win7_64bit on several machines.
One address is an @live one and has a few subfolders and one or two
subfolders of the subfolder and size of all the contents is lets say
300 MB so somehow overseeable.

As often disgussed in the past - this time it's no 3204 and no 5102
error but the subfolders are so unreliable that they become
practically unusable.
Often they simpy dissappear, reappear the next day, the sub-subfolder
is suddenly gone and when you push eMails into the (sub)folder, it
will not sync on the server but show no error message either; even
worse, on one occasion (a lady friend of mine, happened just
yesterday) the subfolder-structure disappeared completely ... an this
time on the server as well because when logging in with the webmailer
the folders were also gone.
I was able to help (used the "previous version" thing of the VSS
volume shaddow copy to locally retrieve the lost mails) but if i (and
i suppose some tohers too) want to continue using WLM (which i do)
there must be some alternative.

Possibly IMAP?

I know that MS aims to replace IMAP e.g. by DeltaSync but i am
wondering and asking if any body dit this - if i couzld try to use the
@live address with IMAP in case it works more stable.

As i understand, @outlook.com and @live.xy addresses can be used with
imap and the server imap-amil.outlook.com
Before i do this, just wondering if anyone has any experience of if
there is something i have to pay attention to e.g. the name of the
special folders
inbox, outbox, junk .... do they have special names (this is the case
with some other eMail providers).

I will continue to use the calendar / contact sync on wlm as this is
independant of eMail usage, just wonder if i as stated can delete the
@live accont, and recreate it with correct IMAP settings and ... if
this really might solve the problem.


Greetings

Roland Schweiger

 

For Hotmail (and now Live and Outlook.com), Microsoft supported POP3,
then dropped it for free accounts, then restored it. Hotmail never
supported IMAP and Microsoft made faint promises to support IMAP but
never did. They claim WebDAV and its replacement Deltasync are better
than IMAP despite only Microsoft clients are the only ones that can
support Microsoft's proprietary protocols. So even if it was better,
few (MS only) clients support it. POP3 and IMAP are the RFC
standardized e-mail protocols but Microsoft doesn't care. They have
their own agenda.

You can only use POP3 or Deltasync to get e-mails from your
Hotmail/Live/Outlook.com account(s).

 

"VanguardLH"

No not quite true, only just recently microsoft did add IMAP support
for outlook.com and thus also for @live addresses.

The servers are
imap-mail.outlook.com
smtp-mail.outlook.com

(though the SMTP server has nothing to do with IMAP). The standard
ports por secure eMail are used.

It might interest others - i just made a test with my @live address.
Removed the (DeltaSync) account in WLM, closed WLM, reopened it and
added my @live eMail address again,
this time by manually configuring the servers (in my German version
this is called "Servereinstellungen manuell vornehmen" and it's a
little checkbox when setting up an eMail account), then i entered the
IMAP servers correspondingly and i did the same thing on a second
machine.

Then i sent myself a few test-mails from another account, then i
created some random nonsense sub-folders and some even more nonsense
subfolders of the subfolders to try to demonstrate everyday life for
later on.
And i bounced some eMails back and forth and meanwhile also opened the
web interface to see sync status.

My tests now only last for a few hours but i can say the following
until now:

The 2 machines running windows7 and WLM work and up to now sync fine
with IMAP and my @live address, carefully speaking, it does seem
stable until now.
The special folders on the server work, only the "deleted items" has a
second name in German "gelöschte Objekte" thus it appears twice, but
sent, junk and inbox are the same.

The webinterface does sometimes seem to lag behind when logging into
www.outlook.com
E.g. an email that i sent from my @live address i then moved from the
"sent items" to a subfolder --- on both Windows machines this syncs
correctly,
but in the WEBINTERFACE it still shows up in "sent items".

Well i do know that IMAP also has some problems e.g. every eMail has
to be sent twice (once to the destination and once to the sent-items
folder)
and i know that DeltaSync was definately ment as a good idea but it
has so many problems in WLM -
i finally hope that this new feature - supporting IMAP for outlooi.com
is more reliable.

Wonder if anyone is testing this too.

greetings from Vienna

Roland Schweiger

 

Fyi..

http://blogs.office.com/b/microsoft-outlook/archive/2013/09/12/outlook-com-now-with-imap.aspx

With respect to WLM (since its legacy and frozen code) while IMAP
servers may function for Hotmail type email accounts (Hotmail, Live,
Msn, Outlook.com) the DeltaSync protocol continues to be the default and
recommended protocol for 'folder and message' mirroring locally and on
the server.

 

Just and fyi.
DeltaSync and its server support for the protocol is legacy code.
Likewise WLM is legacy and frozen code.

Exchange Active Sync (EAS) replaces DeltaSync in Win8x Mail app and
Outlook 2013.

For Hotmail type accounts (Hotmail, Live, MSn, and Outlook.com)
DeltaSync continues to be the recommended format in WLM (11,12) for
local and online folder/message sync.

For Windows 8x Mail app and Outlook 2013 Active Exchange Sync (EAS) is
still the recommended protocol unless the device or mail client doesn't
support EAS then IMAP provides an alternative to 'no-sync' POP3.

 

Microsoft just keeps pushing their proprietary e-mail protocols although
the standard ones have and continue to work just fine for *e-mail*.
There's no requirement that an e-mail protocol must encompass other
non-email protocols to handle contact, calendar, and other
synchronization tasks. Just Microsoft bucking standards and promoting
their own.

 

From what I recall, those IMAP servers were established for use by
either mobile users using apps or for Windows 8 users using the included
Mail client in that version of Windows which has no POP3 support (yeah,
Microsoft included a crippled e-mail client in Windows 8).

http://www.howtogeek.com/130516/how-to-access-pop3-email-accounts-in-windows-8/
"The Mail app included with Windows 8 only supports IMAP, Exchange,
Hotmail/Outlook.com, and Gmail accounts."

I wasn't aware that Microsoft's IMAP server are publicly available to
all users, including those not using mobile apps or the Windows 8 mail
app.

As I recall, users had problems when using the new IMAP servers. I
think it was something about the initial setup of IMAP wiped their
accounts or they had to subscribe for the IMAP service and then wait
until their request got acknowledged and enabled. There was some nasty
I remember users reporting about switching to the IMAP service and why I
don't recommend it. Maybe winston remembers what was the gotcha.

 

"...winston" schrieb im Newsbeitrag

Do you know if the CalendarSYNC of WLM also uses DeltaSync or is this
a different protocol? I only intend to switch the @live address to
IMAP just incase the folder syncing performs better.

So is it meanwhile a fact that WLM is legacy? I often hear that also
Windows8 users use WLM on the desktop side as the NUI mail app does
not provide all the features.
Still a shame ... WLMs overall functionality is good, why abandon it?

greetings

Roland Schweiger

 

To the best of my recollection, IMAP in WLM had a history of issues
during the 2008/2009 era (synchronization, missing folders, locally
deleted messages not syncing upward causing local duplicates). The
engine was improved in 2011 and iirc little unchanged in 2012 though
some issues (timeout, sync) continued when WLM housed accounts using
both types of protocols (DeltaSync and IMAP) - with the IMAP failing
authorization.

Likewise the Win8 Mail app had a few updates for IMAP - Adding the
protocol and subsequent reliability updates also in sharing the code
deployed across non-pc based devices. The first-gen Win8 IMAP was
functional but felt like a regression to the stone-age. It's gotten
better but still needs work.

Side note: There are also optional servers/ports etc. for Outlook.com
when using POP3
- http://windows.microsoft.com/en-us/windows/outlook/send-receive-from-app

 

Roland Schweiger wrote, On 12/1/2013 6:44 AM:

Calendar sync is hard-coded and uses the DeltaSync server

Legacy doesn't necessarily mean abandon immediately. The first level is
usually frozen code and only updated with QFE's for security or if
necessary due to deploying other shared files (e.g in Windows Updates).
Since its part of a suite updating doesn't mean code changes for the
entire suite of products. The last update involved Photo Gallery, Movie
Maker, Writer and the deprecation of Messenger. Mail was untouched
feature wise, but shared files for sync (Photo Email also available as a
menu option in Photo Gallery) and to accomodate SkyDrive changes were
present.

The mail app in Win 8x has gotten better but its really designed and
modeled to be relatively common to smart devices (phones, tablets etc.)
- i.e never intended or designed to be a desktop client as a
replacement for WLM or Office.

...w