Replacement forum?

Discussion in 'Virtual PC' started by Bill Leary, May 30, 2010.

  1. Bill Leary

    Bill Leary Guest

    Has anyone found a likely replacement (substitute) forum for this news
    group?

    I took a look through them, and didn't see a likely one.

    - Bill
    _________________
    Everything matters.
     
    Bill Leary, May 30, 2010
    #1
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  2. Bill Leary

    Robert Comer Guest

    Robert Comer, May 30, 2010
    #2
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  3. Bill Leary

    VanguardLH Guest

    Sure. It's called microsoft.public.virtualpc. Microsoft is killing off
    their own NNTP server. Microsoft is not Usenet. You'll have to use a
    different NSP to continue accessing this newsgroup. Ask in the
    alt.free.newsservers group on suggestions for free NSPs (the one that I
    use is free, carries this newsgroup, and will continue carrying it
    despite Microsoft's scrambling away from Usenet where they had no
    control).
     
    VanguardLH, May 30, 2010
    #3
  4. See my sig. Mhile the VB reference is of no use to you, the news group access might. Eternal september claims they will be ignoring msft's remove message, which means the heiarchy will continue.

    --
    Customer Hatred Knows No Bounds at MSFT
    Free usenet access at http://www.eternal-september.org
    ClassicVB Users Regroup! comp.lang.basic.visual.misc


    : Bill Leary wrote:
    :
    : > Has anyone found a likely replacement (substitute) forum for this news
    : > group?
    : >
    : > I took a look through them, and didn't see a likely one.
    :
    : Sure. It's called microsoft.public.virtualpc. Microsoft is killing off
    : their own NNTP server. Microsoft is not Usenet. You'll have to use a
    : different NSP to continue accessing this newsgroup. Ask in the
    : alt.free.newsservers group on suggestions for free NSPs (the one that I
    : use is free, carries this newsgroup, and will continue carrying it
    : despite Microsoft's scrambling away from Usenet where they had no
    : control).
     
    C. Kevin Provance, May 30, 2010
    #4
  5. Bill Leary

    Bo Berglund Guest

    Seems good to me. I just enrolled and downloaded the vpc and vs
    groups. Got a few months worth of articles out of the server starting
    Feb 7, 2010, I guess they don't keep everything. Maybe it is not
    considered "news" after 4 months....
     
    Bo Berglund, May 30, 2010
    #5
  6. Bill Leary

    VanguardLH Guest

    C. Kevin Provance wrote:

    NOTE: Do *not* use quoted-printable format when posting to newsgroups.
    Configure OE to post using plain text, MIME encoding (set to None), and
    to wrap lines at 76 character, or less (72 allows more levels of indents
    for quoting in replies before OE screws up in generating jagged
    replies).

    Kevin's post wrapped at 72 characters max per line for proper formatting
    in newsgroup posts.
    I used to use Eternal-September (even back when it was called
    Motzarella). There was a time when he had hard disk problems too often
    and then later some other problems so I left and went to Albasani.
     
    VanguardLH, May 31, 2010
    #6
  7. Bill Leary

    VanguardLH Guest

    I have heard of no official statement from a recognized Microsoft
    representative that Microsoft will issue any rmgroup control messages in
    a vain attempt to remove the microsoft.* newsgroups from other NSPs. It
    would highly unlikely that any NSP would honor any such control messages
    from Microsoft even if they were using Microsoft's NNTP server as their
    primary peering host. It is some self-appointed wannabe netcop that has
    threatened to issue the rmgroup control message. A few NSPs will honor
    it (which means they overtly chose to let someone else regulate their
    NNTP server) but most will simply ignore it along with all the other
    unauthorized control messages that they've received daily for decades.
    Since it is a *free* NSP, they don't have the deep pockets of Google
    (from ad revenue) or Giganews (with paid subscriptions) for the disk
    consumption or bandwidth to carry antiquated posts. That's what Google
    Groups is for (as poor as it has become in the last year and half along
    with allowing a-holes to use the X-No-Archive to punch holes in threads
    - I killfile any posters using this header since obviously they don't
    consider their posts of any value to keep around). Threads that are
    over 2 weeks old are pretty stale and usually dead, even more so when
    they become a month old (I don't bother keeping any posts over 15 days
    old in my newsreader). If I need to search on prior articles, that's
    what the Google Groups archive is for.

    For a free NSP (which means someone else is paying for the bandwidth,
    peering, and disk space for you), a year is probably the max for
    retention. As I recall for ES, their retention was 2 years for de.*,
    160 days for the Big 8 hierarchy, 130 days for alt.*, and 90 days for
    the other hierarchies. microsoft.* is not part of the Big 8 hierarchy
    and fall under the "other hierarchies". So 90 days for the other
    hierarchies which include specialty ones, like microsoft.*, looks about
    what you are seeing. Albasani's retention is 300 days. As I recall,
    AIOE's may only be 15 days (when it is up). Commercial NSPs are much
    longer, like 2533 days for text groups (661 for binary groups) for
    Giganews.

    As I recall, you get free access but not unregistered access with ES.
    That is, you have to register to get an account and then use that
    account's login credentials to get your newsreader to connect to their
    NNTP server. If you leave your account idle for over 180 days, it
    expires. Albasani is the same way: you have to register for free access
    to their posting server (no registration needed for read-only access).

    I don't think you need to register to get an account from AIOE which is
    why a lot of troll and noise posts originate from there, plus they seem
    to be down a lot (I don't know if AIOE still exists as a viable
    *posting* server). AIOE's operator likes to play with anti-spam quotas
    that violate RFC or de facto Usenet standards and it has some low
    quotas, like only 25 postings per day (so only use AIOE if you aren't a
    prolific poster but then 25/day is a very low threshold for a definition
    of "prolific").

    Because these are altruistic NSPs paying your way to Usenet access, they
    rarely carry any binary newsgroups. The porn simply consumes way too
    much bandwidth and gobs of disk space. So expect only to find text
    newsgroups on the free NNTP servers.

    No one has to drop the microsoft.* newsgroups just because Microsoft
    crawled back to web-based forums to give them control. Web-based forums
    have been around for 16+ years so they are not the new means of
    community-based help claimed by Microsoft. Microsoft didn't enter
    Usenet with their pretend forums via their webnews-for-boobs gateway
    until 2006, so this has been less than a 4-year experiment by Microsoft.
    Well, 4 years is longer than the average of 2 major changes they've made
    to Hotmail *every* year that has made its users scramble to catch up.
    Usenet has survived many technological changes to communication venues
    since its inception 30 years ago: web-based forums, messenger clients,
    IRC, blogs, Twitter, Facebook, other social networking, etc - and still
    Usenet provided an effective means to discuss viewpoints, discuss
    problems, or share information. It's a simple concept that still works.
    Usenet isn't going away because Microsoft failed in their experiment.

    Some NSPs will have to change their peering relationships since
    Microsoft's NNTP server was a primary peer to many NSPs. No NSP has to
    honor some self-appointed Usenet admin that threatens to issue a rmgroup
    control message anymore than they have to honor anyone's control
    message.
     
    VanguardLH, May 31, 2010
    #7
  8. : C. Kevin Provance wrote:
    :
    : NOTE: Do *not* use quoted-printable format when posting to newsgroups.
    : Configure OE to post using plain text, MIME encoding (set to None), and
    : to wrap lines at 76 character, or less (72 allows more levels of indents
    : for quoting in replies before OE screws up in generating jagged
    : replies).
    :
    : Kevin's post wrapped at 72 characters max per line for proper formatting
    : in newsgroup posts.
    :
    : > See my sig. Mhile the VB reference is of no use to you, the news
    : > group access might. Eternal september claims they will be ignoring
    : > msft's remove message, which means the heiarchy will continue.
    :
    : I used to use Eternal-September (even back when it was called
    : Motzarella). There was a time when he had hard disk problems too often
    : and then later some other problems so I left and went to Albasani.

    Sorry. The mime setting was set to "Quote printable" or something like
    that. I'm not sure what that happened. Everything else was as you
    suggested.
     
    C. Kevin Provance, May 31, 2010
    #8
  9. Bill Leary

    Bo Berglund Guest

    Interestingly, this particular reply from VanguardLH did not make it
    into the Microsoft server...
    At least it was not present when I updated the news content from the
    microsoft server while it seems to have been posted *before* other
    replies to this thread....

    Was that because MS decided it had content directed against themselves
    or is there a limit to the length of a post to forward it to other
    serveres that is used by ES?
     
    Bo Berglund, May 31, 2010
    #9
  10. Bill Leary

    Bo Berglund Guest

    It seems like the replication from E-S to microsoft is incomplete....
    VanguardLH replied to this thread with two posts, but only one made it
    to the Microsoft server. The missing one contained critical comments
    on the way Microsoft manages its newsservers.
    Is this a sign of censorship on Microsoft's side?

    It also seems to be a rather long delay between posting on E-S and the
    actual apperanance on the microsoft server of the message.
     
    Bo Berglund, May 31, 2010
    #10
  11. Bill Leary

    Bo Berglund Guest

    Interestingly my own reply to VanguardLH, which had quoted his text,
    is also not forwarded (or accepted) to the Microsoft newsserver...
     
    Bo Berglund, May 31, 2010
    #11
  12. Bill Leary

    Bill Leary Guest

    OK, so, I've been using Giganews for years for everything except the
    Microsoft groups. I just went over there and typed in
    "microsoft.public.virtualpc" and there it is. With 54890 messages.

    - Bill
     
    Bill Leary, May 31, 2010
    #12
  13. Bill Leary

    VanguardLH Guest

    Microsoft's NNTP server (and their webnews-for-boobs gateway) is known
    to drop or not pickup (through peering) some posts. Even if you post
    using Microsoft's own NNTP server, some of your posts may disappear.
    Their NNTP server will respond with an +OK status so your client thinks
    your post was accepted but your post won't show up (i.e., it gets
    filtered out AFTER being successfully accepted from your client).

    Part of the problem is with the filtering employed by Microsoft. All it
    might take at times is mention of one of the "alt . *" (remove spaces)
    newsgroups to have Microsoft drop the post. When this was happening in
    my past posts that mentioned an alt newsgroup, another poster did the
    same test and found his posts that mentioned an alt newsgroup were also
    getting dropped. I don't know of any documentation detailing
    Microsoft's filtering of newsgroup posts but they do have some, and it
    apparently füçks up occasionally.

    That's another reason why I switched away from Microsoft's NNTP server a
    long time ago. You would post but it wouldn't show up there. If I post
    using a non-Microsoft NNTP server, my post shows up in the rest of
    Usenet and may show up on Microsoft's NNTP server. If it happens not to
    show up on Microsoft's NNTP server, it still gets peered everywhere
    else. That Microsoft's NNTP server drops posts really isn't a surprise
    since Microsoft is well known for dropping messages, like their Hotmail
    server accepting a message from another SMTP mail server, issuing an +OK
    status, but the message disappears inside of Hotmail without ever
    reaching the recipient's mailbox (and has nothing to do with their
    blacklisting or spam filtering). It gets accepted, it goes in, and it
    disappears. Microsoft doesn't have reliable NNTP or Hotmail services.
    They mostly work but do have too many hiccups at times.

    I'm posting using Albasani. I don't know the peering route between
    Albasani and Microsoft but it isn't direct (i.e., Albasani doesn't
    directly peer with Microsoft's NNTP server). So my posts will show up
    in Usenet but might disappear at Microsoft. If ES peers directly from
    Microsoft then the posts dropped by Microsoft won't show up at ES unless
    ES has other peering relationships. Albasani lists their peering
    relationships at:

    http://albasani.net/generated/technical.html.en

    Microsoft's NNTP server ([ms]news.microsoft.com) is not listed so
    Albasani does not directly peer with Microsoft. Albasani lists ES as
    one of their many peers.

    I couldn't find anything at the ES web site listing their peering
    relationships. A lot of the free NSPs might peer the microsoft.* groups
    directly from Microsoft's NNTP server so when Microsoft's NNTP
    disappears then there won't be any new posts to that group (other than
    those made directly to that NSP's NNTP server) since they aren't peering
    elsewhere. Some have acknowledged that they use scripts that scan
    Microsoft's NNTP server (whether the peer against Microsoft's NNTP
    server or elsewhere) and will keep sync with it, so when Microsoft's
    NNTP server disappears then so, too, will all their microsoft.* groups.
    Then there are some that will honor the 'rmgroup' control messages
    submitted by who knows who which makes me wonder if such NSPs are of any
    value if they honor control messages from anywhere.

    Since you are subscribing to ES, maybe you could query them (via e-mail
    or their private newsgroups) to discover their peering relationships and
    also ask them to publish that info on their web site. If they only have
    one or a couple of peers, they might not want their users to know that.
    http://www.eternal-september.org/index.php?showpage=peering lists THEIR
    peering hosts, not with whom else they peer (the Top1000 link is to a
    site to which they send statistics, not a peering site).
     
    VanguardLH, May 31, 2010
    #13
  14. I think Microsoft had a 90-day expiration policy on msnews, no? Every
    server's different, of course.
     
    Karl E. Peterson, Jun 2, 2010
    #14
  15. Bill Leary

    VanguardLH Guest

    Microsoft's retention policy has no effect on the retention policy
    employed by non-Microsoft NNTP servers. Bo switched to Eternal-
    September so he doesn't care what is Microsoft's retention policy.
    Also, when Microsoft kills their NNTP server, there will be no retention
    on a server that doesn't exist.
     
    VanguardLH, Jun 2, 2010
    #15
  16. Thought that's what I said?
    It was merely offered as a comparison value.
    What brings about this hardon of yours?
     
    Karl E. Peterson, Jun 2, 2010
    #16
  17. Bill Leary

    VanguardLH Guest

    Sorry, you aren't that sexy. If you don't want the possibility of
    replies then don't post.
     
    VanguardLH, Jun 4, 2010
    #17
  18. I'm not only open to, but heartily welcome, replies.

    You seemed all "up" about something, and I sure didn't think it was me.
    Just trying to understand. I guess I just provided good platform,
    huh?
     
    Karl E. Peterson, Jun 7, 2010
    #18
  19. Bill Leary

    VanguardLH Guest

    You replied to Bo. You mentioned (guessed at) what was Microsoft's
    retention policy. Bo is using Eternal-September for his NNTP server.
    Bo isn't using Microsoft's NNTP server so I didn't see the relevance of
    your reply.
     
    VanguardLH, Jun 8, 2010
    #19
  20. Yeah, two sentences next to each other, discussing the same topic, can
    be difficult for some. I understand. To review:

    Bo notes E-S has ~4mo retention, saying in passing that they apparently
    don't consider it "news" after that period. To which I responded that
    others have different thresholds.

    It's as if someone online were saying, "It's so hot here! We actually
    hit 80° today!" and someone else replies, "You think that's hot? It was
    104° here yesterday!!!"

    But hey, for someone who doesn't give a ratsass about the world outside
    his own tunnel vision, yeah, I can see how "relevance" would be easily
    lost when the discussion turns to varied experiences.

    Good damn thing you jumped in to protect others from similar confusion!
     
    Karl E. Peterson, Jun 8, 2010
    #20
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